Downswing (WITH AUDIO)

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ferrispgm

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Brian,

First of all, i want to say thanks for helping me with delaying my release, instead of hooks i hit a nice 2 yard draw. Now here is the second part of the problem. I am used to starting the downswing my a slight bump of the left hip rather than squatting. Can you give me any other drills besides the one you mentioned in your downswing article, because i don't think that one is working for me.

Thank You,

Kurt
 
mgjordan

mgjordan

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Starting the swing with a bump of the left hip is fine. Just keep your head still and let the axis tilt. A SMALL bump is all you need...and the fire the right shoulder downplane.

Also, if you have good hip motion, you may not even need to have a body related trigger. Just think about taking your hands to their impact location...or driving them onto your aiming point.
 
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ferrispgm

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Yes, i think it is because i squat too much, and then i try to come up out of it. Most of the time when i try to squat i hit it fat, but when i make my normal swing i hit it fine.
 
oztrainee

oztrainee

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Brain,

If we are squatting, that means we are bending our knee more then we needed, would it affect our body angle, where it will affect the angle of the swing plane?
 
Burner

Burner

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quote:Originally posted by oztrainee

Brain,

If we are squatting, that means we are bending our knee more then we needed, would it affect our body angle, where it will affect the angle of the swing plane?
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Oz,
Squatting is an illusion.
Watch Brian's signature swing video and notice how his right buttock appears to go down as his right shoulder drives down plane and his left shoulder rises.
 
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ferrispgm

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Is this really an illusion, because i have seen other sites that talk about the squat as being a powerful downswing move. If it is an illusion, then would keeping the right shoulder back help it to drive down plane better? I have used a drill where i try to keep the buttons on my shirt pointing to the right as long as possible, and it seems to improve my ball flight a lot, is this a good drill to do?
 
Burner

Burner

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quote:Originally posted by ferrispgm

Is this really an illusion, because i have seen other sites that talk about the squat as being a powerful downswing move. If it is an illusion, then would keeping the right shoulder back help it to drive down plane better? I have used a drill where i try to keep the buttons on my shirt pointing to the right as long as possible, and it seems to improve my ball flight a lot, is this a good drill to do?
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Yup, its an illusion and one of those golfing "truisms" that stuff people up because it is a bad description that is then taken literally.

Do you see Brian squat in his signature swing - no. You see his axis tilt as he drives his right shoulder down plane forcing his whole left side to rise in consequence. Looks like his left hip/buttock rises higher than his right hip/buttock in the process but that is NOT a squat. A squat is where both knees bend at the same time thus lowering the whole golfing machine.
 
oztrainee

oztrainee

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quote:Originally posted by ferrispgm

Is this really an illusion, because i have seen other sites that talk about the squat as being a powerful downswing move. If it is an illusion, then would keeping the right shoulder back help it to drive down plane better? I have used a drill where i try to keep the buttons on my shirt pointing to the right as long as possible, and it seems to improve my ball flight a lot, is this a good drill to do?
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Totally agree to burner, word can drive people mad in golf. Apart from Squart what do you think of the word "Body Rotation". I think Ferrispgm's drill is very much giving an answer to what Proper "Body Rotation" is all about.

Keeping the right bottons on my shirt pointing to the right as long as possible, and that improve the ball flight, Do you normally hitting a fade with your driver? And by using that drill the ball flight is striaghter? So it is very much a drill helping you to keep your right shoulder going down rather then having an outside to inside path, or does it have a particular purpose in using that drill? Interesting...
 
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TGManMachine

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Sorry for butting in on this thread, but some of what is being discussed may apply to my first post about hitting down with the driver in "Hitting down and out". Here are my questions.

I have been told that the driver head may be moving up while the hands are still going down with the low point being outside the left shoulder. When I look at the video of the golfer on this thread it appears as if the left arm and hand must be moving upwards because the head is held back to maintain a backward leaning spine axis through impact. If this is correct, how can the club handle be going down and the low point for the club head be after the ball?

It would seem that the only way the hands could be moving downwards at impact is if the left shoulder has not yet rotated beyond horizontal. If the left shoulder has rotated beyond horizontal before impact, then the left arm and hand will obviously be moving in an upwards direction.

I guess my question is at what position should the rotating left shoulder be at impact while the spine is tilted back to keep the head back too? Thanks and I hope I am not too confused by the geometry. This only applies for the driver swing.
 
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ferrispgm

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that drill that i use does help correct an outside in swing path, because sometimes i get lazy and start my downswing by letting my shoulders uncoil, then when i get back to normal and start my swing with my hips, my shoulders want to turn to far around my body. When doing this drill i actually hit it very straight with my driver, sometimes with a high draw, but mostly straight. this drill also gets by ball flight up alot ie. i know hit my 2 iron almost as high as my 4 or 5 iron. It also does help keep my right shoulder driving down plane more, i just saw my swing on video and it works very well,and it helps keep my behind the ball rather than sliding ahead of it slightly. I saw a link describing tiger's downswing and how much steeper his shoulder plane is on the downswing compared to the backswing, and thats when i decided to try this drill and so far i have had nothing but great results doing it.
 
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wanole

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quote:Originally posted by ferrispgm

that drill that i use does help correct an outside in swing path, because sometimes i get lazy and start my downswing by letting my shoulders uncoil, then when i get back to normal and start my swing with my hips, my shoulders want to turn to far around my body. When doing this drill i actually hit it very straight with my driver, sometimes with a high draw, but mostly straight. this drill also gets by ball flight up alot ie. i know hit my 2 iron almost as high as my 4 or 5 iron. It also does help keep my right shoulder driving down plane more, i just saw my swing on video and it works very well,and it helps keep my behind the ball rather than sliding ahead of it slightly. I saw a link describing tiger's downswing and how much steeper his shoulder plane is on the downswing compared to the backswing, and thats when i decided to try this drill and so far i have had nothing but great results doing it.
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what is the rest of your body doing when you try and keep your buttons pointed left? turning your hips? moving your arms?
 
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TGManMachine

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Thank you very much Brian Manzella for addressing your audio explanation to my question on this thread. I have been trying to sense what is happening to the driver head at impact based on your explanation, but I think things are going too fast for that.

The difficulty I am having visualizing what you said may be due to the fact that the left upper arm rotation around the shoulder joint may have stopped at impact because the left upper arm is held pressed against the left pec. The example of this is the towel being held in the armpit. The left arm does rotate from the top down to impact, but it seems to stay planted or "connected" to the left pec at and after impact, which means it has stopped rotating around the left shoulder joint.

Meanwhile the shoulders are rotating around the spine and bringing the connected left arm around and up. This would mean that the center of rotation at impact is no longer at the left shoulder joint, but must be somewhere around the spine in the upper chest near the shoulder span. If this is correct then the driver head must be rotating on an upward path through impact and not on a downward path as suggested in TGM.

If the driver head is descending at impact, the tees would be broken every time due to the downward thrust of the driver leading edge. I don't break tees at all and they only pop out of the ground as if lifted out by the drive leading edge.

What still puzzles me is the results of my launch monitor optimization data which calls for an ascending driver head for best results. My original thread on this topic seems to have disappeared from this forum section and shifted to the other forum. Perhaps if I repeated my original post here it would be helpful.

quote:I understand about hitting down and out on the ball with my irons and fairways, but I can't seem to get good results with a downward angle of attack with my driver. I was on a launch monitor and I was told to keep the low point of my driver swing behind the ball to get best optimal results. Maybe I don't understand the TGM geometry for the driver swing. Is it different for the driver than the irons? Why did I get best launch results by hitting up with my driver?

My average optimum launch conditions were 97mph club speed, 138mph ball speed, 3250rpm ball spin, 500rpm side spin, 15 degree launch angle, 2 degree positive driver angle of attack, 1 degree azimuth angle. My non-optimal driver swing had a descending driver path and over 4000rpm ball spin rate which was too high and causing ballooning and short carry yardage. My swing tempo is quite smooth so I am not overloading the shaft in the down swing. My driver loft is 10.5 degrees and my shaft is regular flex.
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There seems to be some contradiction between launch monitor data and the concept of hitting down with the driver to a teed up ball. I was hoping you could help resolve that issue. I do hit down with my irons and fairways with good results.

Thank you again for your audio response and I hope you can address the launch monitor issue as well.
 
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TGManMachine

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On further observation and thought on this topic. If the back of the left wrist is flat at impact and the left arm is fixed to the left pec thus becoming part of the rotating torso, the radius of the rotating driver head must be the middle of the chest, and not the left shoulder through impact.

This means that the rotation radius must be drawn from the chest center directly to the driver head, through the air. Perhaps this concept is difficult to accept, but it is quite valid from a scientific aspect. The rotating radius need not be through solid body parts for golf swing geometry.

I recall seeing Vijay Singh practicing and using a towel to immobilize his left arm shoulder rotation by not letting the towel drop out through impact. Also careful observation of the swing of the golfer on this thread clearly shows the left arm rotating in unison with the torso rotation though impact.

The left wrist must flatten due to centrifugal force pulling the arm-club assembly into straight line position and provided the left wrist is not constricted in any way. Since the left wrist is flattened coming through impact and is flat after impact, this suggests that any rotation around the left wrist joint is non-existent. Axial rotation of the left arm as in supination does not affect the ascending or descending path of the driver head, only face alignment.

Also the the tilted back spinal axis and holding the head back suggests that the spinal rotating center is well behind the ball at impact. This suggests that the driver head must be ascending and not descending through impact.

I hope this helps in understanding why the launch monitor data strongly suggests that an ascending driver head is optimal.
 
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TGManMachine

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Is it possible that Kelley's geometry for the driver swing was incorrect given that launch monitor data indicates that longer distances are achieved with a level or ascending driver angle of attack? A downwards or negative angle of attack only results in excessive ball backspin rates.

I ask this because Kelley finished writing TGM over 23 years ago. The book does not illustrate the geometry of the entire golf swing, only the geometry through impact.

I have concluded that the driver swing center is well behind the ball and located in the upper chest area. My geometric drawings of the driver swing also confirms that as do other publications such as Search for a Perfect Swing.

There are no geometric drawings of the entire driver swing in TGM and the reference in 2-J-2 are entirely verbal, which is not a geometric proof. The 1-L drawing does not properly illustrate the back tilt of the spinal axis to position the Stationary Post (player's head) to return the Club-head through the ball (Centered Arc). (See pages 10-11 in TGM).

An excellent illustration of how the spinal axis tilts back to keep the head back through impact is shown in the "skipping rock" action on:

http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=305

Once again, the rotating radius center through impact must be drawn in the upper chest area while the left wrist is stabilized and made flat by centrifugal force, and the upper left arm pressed into the left pec while the left shoulder rises as it rotates around the spine. The down swing rotation of the left arm thus shifts to the chest center to define an ascending driver head.

Has TGM ever been evaluated and revised against new technological information on the golf swing? I would think that Kelley would have done this given his amazing analytical skills.
 
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TGManMachine

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Thank you Brian for responding to my comments and I certainly appreciate your attention to my postings.

I have studied Hinge Action in TGM. Rather than debate the details of Hinging, I refer you to the examples I provided to illustrate the ascending clubhead with the center of rotation well behind the ball and aligned to the back tilted spinal axis.

These examples are: the moving.gif on this thread page, the tilted spinal axis to keep the head back on the other forum site, and the "connection" of the left upper arm to the left pec through impact. Each of these examples suggests that the left arm is not rotating around the left shoulder through impact and therefore the actual center of rotation is in the upper chest area.

The left arm and club shaft may be in line through a flat left wrist, but they and the driver head are rotating around the axis located in the upper chest area. Everything is going around that axis through impact.

What I am saying is that it seems credible that the Hinging Action (10-10-_) essentially stops in the left shoulder approaching impact, and the left arm is only being pulled UP and AROUND by shoulder span rotation around the spinal axis. When this happens, the entire left arm rotates around the central axis or hub located in the upper chest area. This I believe to be an inescapable fact and proven by the total geometry of the golfswing.

If you could provide an illustration of your full swing geometry and proof of the rotative center being in the left shoulder, could you post it on this forum because I think that would be more helpful than written or spoke word descriptions. It could be overlayed over the golf swing pics shown elswhere on your forum.

Again, no independent left shoulder rotation/hinging around the shoulder joint going into impact, and only shoulder-torso rotation to result in an ascending driver head path into impact.

A drawing is worth a thousand words. :)
 
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