Downswing (WITH AUDIO)

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TGManMachine

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If you look at the moving.gif on this thread of the iron swing, you will see a proper descending club head path into the ball on the ground and taking a divot. (I presume that is you, Brian, nice swing.)

If you take that exact swing but elevate it so it does not hit the ground, and then put a ball on a tee located opposite the left fore-foot, and using a driver, you will have an ascending club head path into the ball. The only difference will be there is no divot. This will happen provided you maintain the axis back-tilt and keep the head back and stationary through impact so that you get square impact using circle geometry.

With the jumbo-headed ti-drivers, I use a 3 1/4" tee placed at my left fore-foot, otherwise I would not be hitting the ball just above the center of the club face with an ascending head path. I use a semi-strong 2 1/2 knuckle hand grip so I must release my hips to ensure a square driver face. Most of my drives are straight and if it deviates they become either a straight push or pull. If I do slice it's because my hands get too far behind and release is botched. For some reason I rarely hook the ball.

If the driver head descends into the ball as Kelley postulates, then there would be no need to elevate the ball on a tee. In fact it might be easier to use the driver without a tee or teed very close to the ground at grass height for a small clearance. Driving a ball elevated on a tee is a trickier than hitting a ball on the ground !

Those who prescribe to Kelley's descending driver head concept should test it by trying to hit a ball off the deck, on soft grass and even slightly teed up. The driver should just graze the grass ahead of the ball to confirm a descending path. Has anybody here tried to do this?

Of course if you intend to hit a driver off the deck to reach a distant green, you will have to use a slightly descending stroke to make sure you don't bottom out the driver behind the ball. I use a descending fairway club path because it is more secure and gets the ball up higher and faster.

Just wanted to share these few thoughts with you, and I hope they are helpful in resolving this issue. Thanks and regards.
 
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holenone

Banned
Both the Low Point of the Stroke and the position of the Left Shoulder (Left Shoulder-to-Ball Radius) are established at Impact Fix (2-J-1). The geometry of the Stroke then demands that, absent special purposes, the Low Point remain fixed.

The Left Shoulder, however, is not fixed. Instead, it moves (from its Impact alignment) down and around its Axis (the spine). Having moved down during the Backstroke -- beginning, probably, with a return to Adjusted Address -- it must then move up on its return move to the Ball.

Meanwhile, both the Hands and the Clubhead proceed Down Plane to the bottom of their respective arcs (directly opposite the Left Shoulder).
 
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EdZ

New
quote:Originally posted by holenone


Meanwhile, both the Hands and the Clubhead proceed Down Plane to the bottom of their respective arcs (directly opposite the Left Shoulder).
Click to expand...


Are you suggesting that both arms straight occur at the 'in line' condition with the left shoulder, and not ahead of that point? How do you reconcile this with the fact that the right arm and right wrist is still bent at impact? The only way I see you could even come close to doing that is with no/limited axis tilt, and in such a setup, the 'down' would be difficult at best, you would have a lot less margin for error.

How do you reconcile the left shoulder 'center' vs. aiming point? Does not the concept of aiming point prove that the left shoulder as the center of mass is an illusion?
 
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holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by EdZ

quote:Originally posted by holenone


Meanwhile, both the Hands and the Clubhead proceed Down Plane to the bottom of their respective arcs (directly opposite the Left Shoulder).
Click to expand...


Are you suggesting that both arms straight occur at the 'in line' condition with the left shoulder, and not ahead of that point? How do you reconcile this with the fact that the right arm and right wrist is still bent at impact? The only way I see you could even come close to doing that is with no/limited axis tilt, and in such a setup, the 'down' would be difficult at best, you would have a lot less margin for error.

How do you reconcile the left shoulder 'center' vs. aiming point? Does not the concept of aiming point prove that the left shoulder as the center of mass is an illusion?
Click to expand...

Per 6-A-4, the Both Arms Straight position does not occur until the end of the Follow-Through (8-11). Until then -- well past Impact and Low Point -- the 'normal' position of the Arms prevails: The Left Arm is always straight and the Right Arm is always bent.

The bottom of the arc (of both the Clubhead and the Hands) occurs directly opposite the Left Shoulder. At this point, despite the fact that the Right Arm is still bent, the Club starts 'up and in' (1-L-15). Meanwhile, the Right Arm continues to Drive (via the Hitter's Muscular Thrust) or be Driven (via the Swinger's Centrifugal Force) toward the Plane Line (1-L-10) until it, too, becomes straight.

Regarding the Aiming Point, the fact that On Plane Thrust may be directed at a specific point on the Plane Line does not negate the Left Shoulder Center:

"Regardless of how the Lever Assembly is driven, it moves in a circle" (1-L-9).
 
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EdZ

New
quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

quote:Originally posted by holenone


Meanwhile, both the Hands and the Clubhead proceed Down Plane to the bottom of their respective arcs (directly opposite the Left Shoulder).
Click to expand...


Are you suggesting that both arms straight occur at the 'in line' condition with the left shoulder, and not ahead of that point? How do you reconcile this with the fact that the right arm and right wrist is still bent at impact? The only way I see you could even come close to doing that is with no/limited axis tilt, and in such a setup, the 'down' would be difficult at best, you would have a lot less margin for error.

How do you reconcile the left shoulder 'center' vs. aiming point? Does not the concept of aiming point prove that the left shoulder as the center of mass is an illusion?
Click to expand...

Per 6-A-4, the Both Arms Straight position does not occur until the end of the Follow-Through (8-11). Until then -- well past Impact and Low Point -- the 'normal' position of the Arms prevails: The Left Arm is always straight and the Right Arm is always bent.

The bottom of the arc (of both the Clubhead and the Hands) occurs directly opposite the Left Shoulder. At this point, despite the fact that the Right Arm is still bent, the Club starts 'up and in' (1-L-15). Meanwhile, the Right Arm continues to Drive (via the Hitter's Muscular Thrust) or be Driven (via the Swinger's Centrifugal Force) toward the Plane Line (1-L-10) until it, too, becomes straight.

Regarding the Aiming Point, the fact that On Plane Thrust may be directed at a specific point on the Plane Line does not negate the Left Shoulder Center:

"Regardless of how the Lever Assembly is driven, it moves in a circle" (1-L-9).
Click to expand...

Yes, it does move in a circle, but picking an object in motion as 'center' just because that object (the left shoulder) happens to LOOK at impact like it must be, does not make it the center of the generated force - force vectors, aiming point, the fact that the right hand and arm and wrist are still driving downplane, the right wrist is still bent, axis tilt..... all indicate that the true swing center can not be the left shoulder, despite the illusion.

IF the left shoulder were the center, force 'thrust' could not continute 'downplane' past impact, it would be 'forced' by the nature of a circle, to begin moving up, having reached its full radius, and around the circle - yet that does not occur until both arms straight, well past impact.
 
mgjordan

mgjordan

New
The left shoulder is the center because the left arm and club form the radius of the golf swing, not because it 'appears to be' the center.
 
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EdZ

New
IF the left shoulder is 'center', and the left arm and club form a line (radius) of that circle, how then does force continue downplane (away from center)?

Does not the straight line of the left arm and club mean that there can be no more driving downplane to the aiming point if this were the case? How could you possibly extend 'downplane' any further after impact?

Yet you can, and should, and must - continue to send force downplane past impact, past where the 'left shoulder center' would require that force to be moving 'up' around the circle.
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
quote:Originally posted by EdZ
IF the left shoulder is 'center', and the left arm and club form a line (radius) of that circle, how then does force continue downplane (away from center)?
Click to expand...

it doesn't

quote:Does not the straight line of the left arm and club mean that there can be no more driving downplane to the aiming point if this were the case? How could you possibly extend 'downplane' any further after impact?
Click to expand...

Because the left shoulder is low point and impact is before low point. Finally i understand something complex lol
 
Burner

Burner

New
quote:Originally posted by jim_0068

quote:Originally posted by EdZ
Does not the straight line of the left arm and club mean that there can be no more driving downplane to the aiming point if this were the case? How could you possibly extend 'downplane' any further after impact?
Click to expand...
Because the (outside edge of - Burner's insert) left shoulder is low point and impact is before low point.
Click to expand...
Keee-rect!!
Click to expand...
 
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holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by EdZ

IF the left shoulder is 'center', and the left arm and club form a line (radius) of that circle, how then does force continue downplane (away from center)?

Does not the straight line of the left arm and club mean that there can be no more driving downplane to the aiming point if this were the case? How could you possibly extend 'downplane' any further after impact?
Click to expand...
Angular (circular) Motion is the product of two or more divergent forces and is thus a resultant motion. In the TGM Hitting model, the Mechancial Radius (the Left Arm and Club Lever Assembly) diverts Linear Force (Right Forearm Thrust) into a rotating motion. [An example of this action would be pushing a child on a playground swing.] In the Swinging Model, this rotation is induced by the turning of the Body. [An example of this action is whirling a rock on a string.] In either case, the rotation thus produced in the Golf Stroke is 'Down-and-Out' until Low Point and 'Up and In' thereafter.

The Down Plane Drive to Full Extension does not refer to the straightening of the Left Arm -- that Arm is already straight -- but to the Full Extension of the Right Arm. And that is why Thrust should be directed through the Aiming Point (and not just to it (10-20-A/B).
 
mgjordan

mgjordan

New
Ed,
You don't drive down lower than low point. You drive down TO low point and then head up. THRUST continues to drive down, but the club comes back up.
 
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TGManMachine

New
At impact:

The left arm is straight, the left wrist is fully uncocked due to centrifugal force, and the left wrist is flat and fully released.

The left shoulder rotation has passed horizontal and is rotating upwards, pulling the left arm and fully released left hand upwards.

The left hand is moving up and the driver handle must be moving up too. The right hand is just below the left hand and is being pulled up by the left hand because the left wrist is flat and the driver handle is in-line with the left arm.

There can be no more left arm rotation around the left shoulder because the upper left arm is connected to the left pec, and it does not fly off the left pec through impact or else it would continue to rotate around the left shoulder, which it does not in a proper swing.

The right elbow may still be unflexing coming into impact but that does not affect the fixed length from the left shoulder to the driver head.

If the left arm-club assembly is fixed in-line, and the left arm is being pulled up by the rotation of the left shoulder around the spinal axis, there can be no downward driver head path.

The only way the driver head path can be moving down at impact is if the left wrist is still not fully uncocked and the left wrist is not flat to create an in-line left arm and driver shaft alignment. An arched left wrist or pushing the hands very deep past the ball will create this non-optimal driver condition.

Under these geometric conditions, the center of rotation of the body mass is located in the torso around the spinal axis, and the driver head is on an upward path.

Biomechanically and geometrically, the center or rotation at impact must be the torso if the left arm is to held connected at impact.

Comments please.
 
H

holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by TGManMachine

At impact:

The left arm is straight, the left wrist is fully uncocked....

The only way the driver head path can be moving down at impact is if the left wrist is still not fully uncocked...

Comments please.
Click to expand...
The Left Wrist is Level at Impact. It does not achieve the Maximum Uncock condition until several inches past Impact.
 
T

TGManMachine

New
quote:Originally posted by holenone
The Left Wrist is Level at Impact. It does not achieve the Maximum Uncock condition until several inches past Impact.
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting that the left wrist path is level or on a linear path? How does this reconcile with circle geometry?

How much difference is there between Maximum Uncock and release uncock just before impact? The left hand and wrist are also supinating upwards through and after impact. If the left wrist is flat coming into impact, the amount of uncocking should be adequate to achieve an in-line left arm and driver shaft, so that further uncocking is immaterial.
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quote:Originally posted by brianman
The left shoulder moving UP
MAKES the club go down!!!
Watch...
http://homepage.mac.com/brianmanzella/.Movies/leftshoulderup.mov
Click to expand...

I appreciate what you are saying as applicable for irons, but for drivers, the lateral spinal axis tilt back keeps the torso center of rotation well behind the ball and the geometry results in an ascending path to the teed up ball. Otherwise why tee up the ball so high and place it forward and opposite the left foot? Again, this issue of driver head path can be easily resolved with definitive launch monitor data.

As for the left shoulder going up, perhaps I should qualify that by saying that the shoulder span rotates around the inclined spinal axis at impact.

The left shoulder is perceptively rotating upwards and around the spinal axis while the left upper arm is solidly connected to the left pec resulting in no left arm rotation around the left shoulder through impact.

This is well illustrated in the moving.gif of your swing as shown in your posting signature. I can stop each gif pic by depressing my mouse over the side bar, and when I stop it just at impact your left shoulder is well above level, and your left arm has stopped rotating around your left shoulder because it is solidly connected to your left pec.

Could you comment on the moving.gif of your golf swing in this matter. Thanks.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
One thing at a time.

In the video....How could I get the club to go down without getting my left shoulder to go up????

You have to answer this question.......
 
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