drawing and fadeing
- Thread starter bantamben
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Shape your shots by changing the ball position or setup alignment.
For a swinger, put the ball farther forward and/or use more left forearm 'roll' through impact for a draw...Ball farther back for a fade...
...clubface is responsible for initial ball direction and any sidespin is brought about by the path. Ex: An extremely inside-out swing path with a square face will produce a shot that starts straight and curves away to the left...
You'll have to experiment.
For a swinger, put the ball farther forward and/or use more left forearm 'roll' through impact for a draw...Ball farther back for a fade...
...clubface is responsible for initial ball direction and any sidespin is brought about by the path. Ex: An extremely inside-out swing path with a square face will produce a shot that starts straight and curves away to the left...
You'll have to experiment.
Depends on the clubs you are playing. When I switched to blades I can move the ball simply by adjusting the club face and swinging basically the same. I don’t know if that is the best way but it is very repeatable. I aim the face where I want the ball to go and I aim my body where I want the ball to start off. Clubs that are forgiving this will not work.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
The Ball will start pretty much where the face is pointing at SEPARATION.
It will curve if the path (PLANE LINE) is pointing somewhere else.
It will curve 'about' the same amount to the opposite side that the path points to.
HOW you do this is up to you!
It will curve if the path (PLANE LINE) is pointing somewhere else.
It will curve 'about' the same amount to the opposite side that the path points to.
HOW you do this is up to you!
Let me get this straight:
A push fade is produced by an open club face at separation, and a plane line that is moving more to the left of where the face points.
A push is an open face with the plane line pointing in the same direction as the club face.
A draw is an open face with the plane line that is pointing more to the right of where the face is pointing.
A fade is produced by a closed club face with a plane line that is pointing more to the left of the club face.
A pull is a closed club face with the plane line pointing in the same direction as the face.
A pull hook is a closed club face with the plane line pointing more to the right than the face.
Is this correct?
A push fade is produced by an open club face at separation, and a plane line that is moving more to the left of where the face points.
A push is an open face with the plane line pointing in the same direction as the club face.
A draw is an open face with the plane line that is pointing more to the right of where the face is pointing.
A fade is produced by a closed club face with a plane line that is pointing more to the left of the club face.
A pull is a closed club face with the plane line pointing in the same direction as the face.
A pull hook is a closed club face with the plane line pointing more to the right than the face.
Is this correct?
I don't wish to get into a debate, I merely ask the following two questions?
Where is this Ball Flight Theory Documented? (Note it isn't in Search for the Perfect Swing, The Physics of Golf, PGA Manual, John Jacobs books, etc. and it isn't in TGM, cause Kelley I learned never had the equipment to test and verify that at high club speeds that static predictions held true. In fact he didn't evaluate the D-model as I understand it. Also the layback hinge supports this position whereas the horizontal and angled hinging is quite different, especially on an inclined plane. Angular motion is a different set of calculations, parameters, etc.)
Second question when explaining to someone how to hit a fade or draw, should, if you follow TGM not you adhere to 7-2?
I read this as TGM(Kelley) advocates two different procedures based on swing types.
Where is this Ball Flight Theory Documented? (Note it isn't in Search for the Perfect Swing, The Physics of Golf, PGA Manual, John Jacobs books, etc. and it isn't in TGM, cause Kelley I learned never had the equipment to test and verify that at high club speeds that static predictions held true. In fact he didn't evaluate the D-model as I understand it. Also the layback hinge supports this position whereas the horizontal and angled hinging is quite different, especially on an inclined plane. Angular motion is a different set of calculations, parameters, etc.)
Second question when explaining to someone how to hit a fade or draw, should, if you follow TGM not you adhere to 7-2?
I read this as TGM(Kelley) advocates two different procedures based on swing types.
Not first hand with GolfTec.
Note the last statement...
"It is path to face. The club can be on a perfect swing path for a straight shot, but if the face is open or closed, you will get side spins."
So if the if face is open you slice and closed you hook if the reference is the path. That is what John Jacobs based his on.
The whole Ball Flight Laws was to first refrence the ball flight to target line and it equated that with clubpath. Then the condition of the club face to the clubpath for spin. Unless you have extremes this set of Laws hold up true. Also what you are referencing has assumed that any path that is not on the target line or square to the path is a glancing blow caused by the path not the face.
A lot of this is what is the basis for the premise (reference).
cherrybarry
New
I think initial ball direction is determined primarily by clubface, as Kuykendall mentioned.
Based on the PGA rules, if you swung out-in with an open face relaltive to target line, you would hit a pull-slice.
But the resulting shot really is a push-slice, ball that starts right and curves more right as the open face (relative to target) is responsible for the "push" and the out-in path (relative to the clubface alignment) is responbile for the "slice".
Because the clubface is almost always the dominant factor in determining initial ball direction (even 70% with the driver), it should be used in reference to initial ball direction (relative to target line.
So it the the clubface alignment at separation (relative to target line) that determines the "push" (open face) or the "pull" (closed face).
And the clubhead path (relative to clubface alignment) determines the spin and the "slice" or "hook" that results.
The problem I see with the PGA teaching it the other way around is that because most golfers start off slicing the ball and almost all beginners swing out-in with an open face, when they hit a push-slice, the immediately think they swung in-out with an open face, which could happen, but they fail to see that they swing with an out-in path with an open face, so they swing more out-in and worsen the problem instead of fixing the clubface. This also involves the fact that out-in/open and in-out/closed almost always occur together and out-in/closed and in-out/open is virtually non-existent, since pull hooks and push slices are caused by instead, in-out/closed and out-in/open respectively.
As for working the ball with the swingers, I would agree with Kelley's comments.
I personally think about controlling the left arm rotation with a flat left wrist to control the clubface at separation.
Based on the PGA rules, if you swung out-in with an open face relaltive to target line, you would hit a pull-slice.
But the resulting shot really is a push-slice, ball that starts right and curves more right as the open face (relative to target) is responsible for the "push" and the out-in path (relative to the clubface alignment) is responbile for the "slice".
Because the clubface is almost always the dominant factor in determining initial ball direction (even 70% with the driver), it should be used in reference to initial ball direction (relative to target line.
So it the the clubface alignment at separation (relative to target line) that determines the "push" (open face) or the "pull" (closed face).
And the clubhead path (relative to clubface alignment) determines the spin and the "slice" or "hook" that results.
The problem I see with the PGA teaching it the other way around is that because most golfers start off slicing the ball and almost all beginners swing out-in with an open face, when they hit a push-slice, the immediately think they swung in-out with an open face, which could happen, but they fail to see that they swing with an out-in path with an open face, so they swing more out-in and worsen the problem instead of fixing the clubface. This also involves the fact that out-in/open and in-out/closed almost always occur together and out-in/closed and in-out/open is virtually non-existent, since pull hooks and push slices are caused by instead, in-out/closed and out-in/open respectively.
As for working the ball with the swingers, I would agree with Kelley's comments.
I personally think about controlling the left arm rotation with a flat left wrist to control the clubface at separation.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Golftek has done the most research....that you can get a "hold" of.
Why, oh why!!! can't some people understand that the ball flight "laws" written by Gary Wiren are WRONG!!!!!!!
?
Why, oh why!!! can't some people understand that the ball flight "laws" written by Gary Wiren are WRONG!!!!!!!
?
Initial reaction is that 'Wrong' is not 'Correct'.
I shall contact Golftek, this should be interesting.
Case 1
- Club face open 6* to target line
- Club path closed 2* to Club face
Result Push Slice resulting from an open club face to path and in to out swing.
Case 2
- Club face closed 4* to target line
- Club path closed 2* to club face
Result Pull Slice resulting from an open club face to path and out to in swing.
BUT according to the definition of Clubface to Target Line Case 1 has an open club face while Case 2 has a closed club face. Given this, how do you define the path? Since both slice the path must be to the inside of the clubface? How does one define in to out and out to in? You can't, all you can say is that the path is to the left (inside) of the face direction.
Whereas with the Ball Flight Laws you will accurately define an in to out and out to in paths to the Target Line as well as the clubface position to the Club path. Interesting the quotes in previous entries state that spin is a function of "but if the face is open or closed, you will get side spins".
It is a matter of the reference point
1. Clubface to Target Line - Club Path to Clubface
or
2. Club Path to Target Line - Club face to Club Path.
Club Path is referenced to the Target Line universally (TGM included) and Club Face is referenced to the path. That is why the Ball Flight Laws since at least the 70s have held the test of time in assisting golfers and instructors to properly diagnose the swing path and clubface alignment.
Lets face it, ball direction is defined by more than just clubface angle or clubpath, it comprises centerness of contact, even clubhead speed (something that seems to be overlooked with regard to effect of initial direction), etc.
Gary Wiren, didnt invent it, John Jacobs was using it back in the early 70's if not before.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Martee....you realize how much more about the golf swing we know than John Jacobs did???
Really now.
THIS IS AN ANNOUNCEMENT!!!!!!!!
I, BRIAN MANZELLA, HAVE GIVEN 18,000 GOLF LESSONS AND I EVERY NOW AND THEN (LIKE DAILY) COME UP WITH SOMETHING ON MY OWN!!!
THE GOLFING MACHINE IS MY MAIN BODY OF KNOWLEDGE.
BEN DOYLE IS MY TEACHER.
BUT I AM PRETTY SMART TOO AND I HAVE FIGURED OUT SOME STUFF AS WELL.
OK?
Really now.
THIS IS AN ANNOUNCEMENT!!!!!!!!
I, BRIAN MANZELLA, HAVE GIVEN 18,000 GOLF LESSONS AND I EVERY NOW AND THEN (LIKE DAILY) COME UP WITH SOMETHING ON MY OWN!!!
THE GOLFING MACHINE IS MY MAIN BODY OF KNOWLEDGE.
BEN DOYLE IS MY TEACHER.
BUT I AM PRETTY SMART TOO AND I HAVE FIGURED OUT SOME STUFF AS WELL.
OK?
This is probably too long.
Brian, I don't believe I have said you interpetation of the data is incorrect, in fact I have used yours and others in my example, I have however challenged you regarding the INCORRECTNESS of the Ball Flight LAWs. In fact the only examples that I have been provided are:
a. Using a putter to show clubface defines direction (slow speed which is not representative of the actual swing)
b. Extreme openness or closeness of the clubface to the path.
Granted the above proves your point but as I am trying to communicate is that it doesn't invalidate the Ball Flight Law results.
The examples I gave clearly allow a golfer to determine club path to target line and clubface to club path.
Using your methodology, I have told the golfer only that the clubpath is to the inside of the clubface alignment. He must on his own then attempt to assertain if the path was in to out or out to in the target line. Maybe if the TGM terms were used for the path, closed (in to out) and open (out to in) then the golfer might grasp the concept. Similar to how a golfer does understand closed and open stance lines.
One point which really makes the discussion mute is that you can't vary the path alone or the face alone and only effect initial direction or curvature, they interact. Opening the face and having the path on the target line you will get a slice spin and a ball to the outside. Out to in path and clubface on target line, you will get a slice spin and a ball starting to the inside moving out. Change either an it effect both direction and curvature. Does it matter that the clubpath in the last was 4* inside and the ball only started 1* degree to the inside? No, what matters is that the path was from out to in and the path was not square with the face (or the face was not square with the path). That is the information a golfer needs to know to begin identifying swing faults IMO.
Assuming that the results are acceptable from the Ball Flight Laws, maybe they should have choosen their words better and so as to say
The variation in the initial direction from the target line is an indication that the club path is out to in or in to out. Square the clubpath to the target line and the result will be a minor curvature (assuming we are not at extremes in angle between clubface and club path). And the curvature of the ball indicates that the clubface is either open or closed to the club path. Square the clubface to the club path and no curvature. (You could reverse the order of clubface and clubpath and have the same result)
Brian Manzella
Administrator
What I meant was "what Jacobs KNEW at that time".
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Ok Mr.ed.....
Path (plane line) is 10 degree inside out with a 6 iron.
Clubface is 4 degrees CLOSED to the target at separation.
ALL OF THESE YAHOOS THAT ADHERE TO THE "BALL FLIGHT LAWS" (AND BTW THEY ARE NO BALL FLIGHT LAWS...JUST LAWS) SAY THE BALL WILL START PRETTY FAR TO THE RIGHT OF THE TARGET AND THE BALL WILL HOOK TOWARD OR TO THE CLUBFACE ALIGNMENT WAY LEFT OF THE TARGET.
They couldn't be more wrong!!!!!!!**&^%^*^$!
The ball will START LEFT and hook more.
You....and Wiren and jacobs and all your pals LOSE.
Thankyouverymuch
Path (plane line) is 10 degree inside out with a 6 iron.
Clubface is 4 degrees CLOSED to the target at separation.
ALL OF THESE YAHOOS THAT ADHERE TO THE "BALL FLIGHT LAWS" (AND BTW THEY ARE NO BALL FLIGHT LAWS...JUST LAWS) SAY THE BALL WILL START PRETTY FAR TO THE RIGHT OF THE TARGET AND THE BALL WILL HOOK TOWARD OR TO THE CLUBFACE ALIGNMENT WAY LEFT OF THE TARGET.
They couldn't be more wrong!!!!!!!**&^%^*^$!
The ball will START LEFT and hook more.
You....and Wiren and jacobs and all your pals LOSE.
Thankyouverymuch
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