drawing and fadeing
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
Hey ED
How do you fix a slicer?
How do you fix a slicer?
You are not quoting the PGA Manual? If so you left a few sentences out.
"Face position has a greate potential to influence the flight of the ball than does swing path because it has more possibility for variations. The direction in which the ball starts will always be the result of a combination of swing path direction and clubface position.Where the ball starts will also be inflenced by the velocity of the clubhead. The slower the clubhead is traveling, say a putt or chip, the more precisely the gall will come off in the direction the clubface is presented. With greater clubhead speed, the ball's starting path will move somewhat closer to the swing path line than before but will always fall in between the face and path direction favoring the face angle (Illus 2-18) It is sometimes is incorrectly stated that the ball starts on the swing path line. This is true only when the face is at right angles to theat line. So remember, the face has a greater influence than path, but the highter the clubhead velocity, the freater is that particular vector force moving the ball's starting direction closer to the swing path line....
"
Interesting that early in this thread everyone was bashing the PGA Ball Flight Laws when in reality they don't say what everyone was saying that they said.
What they do say that is in disagreement is the reference of the clubface to the swing path vs the swing path to club face. In the previous paragraph to the one above quoted, they reflect this and how to analyze the shot also in the paragraph following.
I was only attempting to point out that posts here are slaming the PGA when they are misstating what the PGA is saying.
I can buy that Martee. I must confess I have never read the manual, but then I never quoted it either.(Not saying you said I did). It's just that I was always lead to believe that they taught that the clubpath was the major factor. I do believe that the more elastic the collision, the more influence the path has, but the face will always be the prevelant factor.
I still look at the ball flight determine the path to target line and face to path and confirm it with divots if any are present for full shots. It works and has worked for 30 plus years and is currently used today. Also few realize the side spin although applied to the ball is never to the horizontal axis but to tilt the vertical axis and that most shots that curve have some club tilt as well which maybe why Jacob's definition holds up. But it was never for measurements of 2 degrees and 1 degrees.
I find the terms of the path closed to the closed clubface causing a pull slice and then path closed to the open clubface does not relate to golfers that well. Most arent trying to be precise, only trying to keep the ball on the short grass and when not what did they do wrong.
Ball Flight descriptions to golf club positions/alignments still don't tell you what the golfer did wrong only what the club was doing on that swing.
cherrybarry
New
The only problem I see is that golfers do one thing and think they are doing another.
I still believe clubface determines the initial ball direction. The ball doesn't always go where the clubpath is going. So a golfer who pushes - did he swing in-out, or had an open face, etc?
I only speak from experience on this but most push shots I have seen are caused by out-in swings with open clubfaces. You clearly see them swinging to the left but the ball starts to the right. And no, I don't believe in a new set of laws for "extreme" conditions of the clubface - what are the boundaries of "extreme"?
Also, "extreme" does not mean uncommon. In fact, I see more of these extreme clubface angles than the "normal" ones.
I know much of what I say is based on observation and experience and I don't have much scientific data, but working on my own and looking at other's swings from this different perspective, it just seems like clubface is more important in determining initial direction, and therefore, it should be in reference to the target line.
By experience, I mean that Brian's laws explain why everytime I set-up for a draw/hook with a closed face, I end up hitting a pull hook instead of the hook that starts along the target line. And how out-in swings cause push shots (look at Tiger Woods against Scott at the Match Play on the ninth hole? and 2 shot on 2nd hole in 3 round at Olympia Fields.
Not to say that out-in always creates a push shot, but it usually occurs with an open face.
The probelm I see with referencing clubpath to target line is that clubpath isn't the primary determinant in initial direction. The primary determinant should be referenced to target line and that is the clubface. If you referencing clubpath to target line, then you are saying that clubpath determines initial direction, and my belief if that this is not true.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Martee....YOU don't have all the facts.
The ball flight "laws" where taught as gospel as ball STARTS on the PATH curves to the face.
By the time the PGA Manual was """""compiled""""" the ball flight "laws" had been ripped to pieces in the old (much better, BTW) PGA magazine.
Wiren THEN added what you quoted.
And that's a fact Jack!
The ball flight "laws" where taught as gospel as ball STARTS on the PATH curves to the face.
By the time the PGA Manual was """""compiled""""" the ball flight "laws" had been ripped to pieces in the old (much better, BTW) PGA magazine.
Wiren THEN added what you quoted.
And that's a fact Jack!
Brian Manzella
Administrator
They (The PGA "Laws") are wrong and every decent teacher in the world knows they are.
Depends on them.....
But for a start....
1) grip
2) setup
3) balance (well this is really always #1)
4) takeaway
Drills:
1) swing 2 or 3 clubs together (or other heavy club)
2) pump drill
3) split grip drill
4) 2 and 3 with 1
5) hitchhiker drill (this is a constant, until they 'know' how to hit/feel a hook)
Of course, it depends on the student.....
In addition to the above... I'd give them a frisbee.
Very good for showing several things.
First - plane - show them a throw where the frisbee in on plane (hip to hip)
Second - rotation - show them the effects of forearm rotation
Third - connection - show them how the upper arms stay in synch with the chest, which helps 1 and 2
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Ed...please don't take this the wrong way...
You have no clue (from what I have read) of how to fix a slice.
Of course you wouldn't....you think the Ball Flight Flaws are correct.
Hang around...you WILL Learn something.
You have no clue (from what I have read) of how to fix a slice.
Of course you wouldn't....you think the Ball Flight Flaws are correct.
Hang around...you WILL Learn something.
Pull the stick out Brian.... you claim to be some great teacher, but from what I have seen, you're mostly talk, at least when it comes to TEACHING people WHAT to do, and HOW to do it.
So prove me wrong - please, and tell me your insights that will teach the masses to play great golf.
In my mind a great teacher lets the results speak for themselves, so show me some results, and quit all the hype.
Why did Toms go with another instructor?
Put up or shut up.
Michael Finney
New
edz.....
"put up or shut up" might be a good thing for you to do......
brian's credentials have been gone over numerous times......
you just keep teaching your students that the path determines initial direction and hope david toms or someone like him falls into your lap......teach him quickly and charge him alot because he wont be with you long because you can't explain to him why his ball is going right when he swings so far left....
"put up or shut up" might be a good thing for you to do......
brian's credentials have been gone over numerous times......
you just keep teaching your students that the path determines initial direction and hope david toms or someone like him falls into your lap......teach him quickly and charge him alot because he wont be with you long because you can't explain to him why his ball is going right when he swings so far left....
cherrybarry
New
Well, this forum has lived up to all the hype!
Brian Manzella
Administrator
EdZ....
You want some answers to your comments...
You got 'em...
YOU SAID
EdZ: Pull the stick out Brian.... you claim to be some great teacher, but from what I have seen, you're mostly talk, at least when it comes to TEACHING people WHAT to do, and HOW to do it.
Brian Manzella: What exactly have you seen, ed? That I have spent the last 20 years of my life standing in the heat of two very hot cities (sometimes cold, too) HELPING people play better, WITHOUT BASTARDIZING THEM. I have taught numerous tour pros and players who became tour pros, who have all benifited from my help. I have risen to the TOP in my two cities first in New Orleans, then in Louisville. I did tis RISING from the BOTTOM, at DRIVING RANGES, with nearly ALL THE OTHER PROS AT THE RANGES AND IN THE AREA trying to keep me down.
I do, what I do, as good as ANYONE has EVER done it.
I summit to you this REVIEW(recent) of my TEACHING posted on the web.
It is from a 2-TIME KENTUCKY OPEN STATE CHAMPION who read my stuff on freegolfinfo and drove from Cincinnati for a lesson (since been back twice and took his wife for a lesson also)
I Had the awesome opportunity to spend over an hour with Brian Manzella working on my swing! I came away impressed with his knowledge and with the man himself!! A more passionate person I have never met!!!! He is truely someone who loves golf;knows golf and respects golf!!!! I like his way of expressing his opinions openly and without fear of rejection!!! As for the lesson; I've played Professionally in my day and I am working on returning to serious competition, I was surprised and encouraged with the advice I got from Brian. It was simple and concise!!! My initial problem dealt with my lack of making a correct pivot on the backswing. Brian showed me how I should pivot through video and feel! I was amazed at the results, both in my shots and the look and feel of my swing!!!! I am hoping to get into more intricate aspects of TGM and how I can best use it for my swing and in my teaching!!!! I am really looking forward to seeing Brian again and if all other TGM pro's are as knowledgeable as Brian, the PGA better take note!!!!!!!
Edz:So prove me wrong - please, and tell me your insights that will teach the masses to play great golf.
Brian Manzella: I tell WAY too much on the web. Reread all my post on FGI, TGM, CEvans, etc.
EdZ: In my mind a great teacher lets the results speak for themselves, so show me some results, and quit all the hype.
Why did Toms go with another instructor? Put up or shut up.
Brian Manzella: Read This:
www.courier-journal.com/cjsports/news2003/05/18/sp051803s406314.htm
You want some answers to your comments...
You got 'em...
YOU SAID
EdZ: Pull the stick out Brian.... you claim to be some great teacher, but from what I have seen, you're mostly talk, at least when it comes to TEACHING people WHAT to do, and HOW to do it.
Brian Manzella: What exactly have you seen, ed? That I have spent the last 20 years of my life standing in the heat of two very hot cities (sometimes cold, too) HELPING people play better, WITHOUT BASTARDIZING THEM. I have taught numerous tour pros and players who became tour pros, who have all benifited from my help. I have risen to the TOP in my two cities first in New Orleans, then in Louisville. I did tis RISING from the BOTTOM, at DRIVING RANGES, with nearly ALL THE OTHER PROS AT THE RANGES AND IN THE AREA trying to keep me down.
I do, what I do, as good as ANYONE has EVER done it.
I summit to you this REVIEW(recent) of my TEACHING posted on the web.
It is from a 2-TIME KENTUCKY OPEN STATE CHAMPION who read my stuff on freegolfinfo and drove from Cincinnati for a lesson (since been back twice and took his wife for a lesson also)
I Had the awesome opportunity to spend over an hour with Brian Manzella working on my swing! I came away impressed with his knowledge and with the man himself!! A more passionate person I have never met!!!! He is truely someone who loves golf;knows golf and respects golf!!!! I like his way of expressing his opinions openly and without fear of rejection!!! As for the lesson; I've played Professionally in my day and I am working on returning to serious competition, I was surprised and encouraged with the advice I got from Brian. It was simple and concise!!! My initial problem dealt with my lack of making a correct pivot on the backswing. Brian showed me how I should pivot through video and feel! I was amazed at the results, both in my shots and the look and feel of my swing!!!! I am hoping to get into more intricate aspects of TGM and how I can best use it for my swing and in my teaching!!!! I am really looking forward to seeing Brian again and if all other TGM pro's are as knowledgeable as Brian, the PGA better take note!!!!!!!
Edz:So prove me wrong - please, and tell me your insights that will teach the masses to play great golf.
Brian Manzella: I tell WAY too much on the web. Reread all my post on FGI, TGM, CEvans, etc.
EdZ: In my mind a great teacher lets the results speak for themselves, so show me some results, and quit all the hype.
Why did Toms go with another instructor? Put up or shut up.
Brian Manzella: Read This:
www.courier-journal.com/cjsports/news2003/05/18/sp051803s406314.htm
Michael Finney
New
on second thought.....nm
We read from your posts that you have great info. But people like EdZ have not seen it. I haven't seen it either (except for that post about low point below the left shoulder. I really liked that explanation).
For that amateur champion to come to you and say that your teaching was simple and concise, it doesn't do anything for me either. It sounds like for all your detailed explanations that you have about the swing, the lessons that you give might be very "standard." Harmon, Leadbetter, and a ton of PGA pros give very simple and concise lessons, too. Maybe yours are the same?
I'm still going to selfishly read this forum, b/c I'm hoping that there will be a gem from you, eventually.
For that amateur champion to come to you and say that your teaching was simple and concise, it doesn't do anything for me either. It sounds like for all your detailed explanations that you have about the swing, the lessons that you give might be very "standard." Harmon, Leadbetter, and a ton of PGA pros give very simple and concise lessons, too. Maybe yours are the same?
I'm still going to selfishly read this forum, b/c I'm hoping that there will be a gem from you, eventually.
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