drawing and fadeing

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cherrybarry

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This is what I believe.

It is not about in-out or out-in and whether or not they are in refernce to the target line or the clubface alignment.

Such as Martee's Case 1.

Clubface is 6 degrees open to targetline.
Clubpath is 2 degrees closed to clubface.

In reference to the target line, the golfer has swung in-out with an open face and hits a PUSH SLICE. But this is not the issue (based on how I see it).

Under both sides of the issue (Brian, Golftec, Kuykendall, etc. and the PGA Instructors), I think both agree that in Case 1, a push slice will result. It is the "shape" of the push slice that is the difference.

I think the real issue is this.

The PGA believes initial ball direction is determined by clubpath and curve is determined by clubface. So in Martee's Case 1, the ball will start off 4 degrees to the right of the target line and continue to curve more to the right.

Manzella, Golftec, etc. believe that initial ball direction is determined by clubface. So the ball starts off 6 degrees to the right and curves more to the right.

The difference can really be seen when we consider an out-in swing (in relation to TARGET LINE) with an open face in relation to the TARGET LINE.

The PGA will say the result is a pull-slice.

But Manzella, Golftec say the result is a push-slice.

The difference is what primarily determines path and curve.

PGA says initial direction is determined by clubpath and curve determined by clubface (relative to the clubpath).

Manzella, Golftec say initial direction is determined by clubface and curve determined by clubpath (relative to the clubface).

Both are not the same and both "laws" result in difference shot patterns.

So Martee has a point in Case 1 that both sides will agree that a push-slice will result from an in-out swing with an open face that is also open to not only the target line, but the clubpath as well. The difference is the characteristic ball flight of that push-slice, whether the ball starts out 4 degrees to the right (PGA) or 6 degrees to the right (Manzella).

Whatever determines initial ball direction is referenced to the target line and whatever determines curve is referenced to "whatever is referenced to target line".

Lets say we have a swing that is 2 degrees in-out to the TARGET LINE (clubpath) and 4 degrees open to the TARGET LINE (clubface). I am purposely referencing both the target line so it's easier to understand.

PGA will say that the clubpath is 2 degrees in-out to the TARGET LINE. The clubface is then 2 degress open to the CLUBPATH. Push-slice is the result.

The other side will say clubface is 4 degrees open to the TARGET LINE and clubpath is 2 degrees out-in to the CLUBFACE.

The PGA will now say the ball starts off 2 degrees right because of clubpath being 2 degrees right and Golftec will say the ball starts off 4 degrees right because the clubface is 4 degrees open.

Both swings are the same but the prediction in ball flight is different, even though both shots are still push-slices, they are NOT THE SAME PUSH-SLICE.

I think the differenc is that whatever is reference to the target line determines the initial ball direction. Whether it is clubapath (PGA) or clubface (Manzella, Golftec, etc.) is the difference.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Good Post Cherry...

Do you know how GOLFTEK got their results???

THEY BOUGHT A SWING ROBOT (like a iron byron) and they dialed in the path and clubfaces with HUNDREDS of clubs and after YEARS of testing they say..

MANZELLA IS RIGHT!!
 
M

Martee

New
CB nice post.

One factor to consider and I keep bringing this up and it just gets ignored.

Actual ball flight, curve and initial direction is a composite.

Path
Face Angle
Speed
Centerness
Loft

Interesting that when the face angle is not square to the path or path not square to face the centerness is tilted. Meaning that the toe or heel will be higher or lower. This effect as more to do with side spin than anything else cause it changes the horizontal axis, it tilts and that is how side spin is created. The ball will normally have backspin on the ball if hit correctly which is revolving around the horizontal axis. The tilt is what changes the horizontal axis causing it to have side spin.

Next the ball is carried in the direction of the path for some very short time which then upon separation changes the launch direction based on the angle of the face and the path. It is less than the face angle and the higher the speed and less loft the more the path effects this or holds it to the path line, thought if there is any angle of the face to path it will be the something in between.

The so called PGA rules is not to measure degrees but to provide an indication of the club path in to out and out to in and the alignment of the clubface open or closed. It was never intended to provide preciseness in degrees.

As for the example you gave a Push Slice is a Push Slice regarding the fact the path is in to out and the face is open. How far out or how much curve is not what the intent was to be determined.

I leave you with two examples, each one will disprove one or the other.

Clubface square to target line
Clubpath out to in at 4 degrees target line or clubface in this case.

Brian's system will state the ball direction is down the target line and slicing. The would call it a straight slice.

Fact is that the ball will start to the inside of the target line and slice. The path will influence the direction, this is recognized by those who advocate this system.

PGA will call it a pull slice

Clubpath in to out 2 degree to target line
Clubface closed 15 degree to target line or 17 degrees club path.

Ball flight will start to the inside of the target line and curve further to the inside. PGA calls it a pull hook (most likely approaching a duck hook) from a closed clubface and out to in swing. Obviously wrong.

Brian's system would identify this as closed club face and a swing path of in to out or out to in but still to the out side of the clubface angle (less than the angle of the clubface to the target line). Inconclusive at best or Obviously wrong if they call it an out to in swing.

Another one that will give the same faulty indication can be from any extremes differences.

Niether system is fool proof, cause we are only trying to get into the ball park by watching the ball flight to the target line.

We are not machines and machines testing clubs and balls do not accurately reflect reality, such as distance testing.

Again it is just to get you into the ball park, else you would take into account all the factors cause if any factor is taken to an extreme which will skew the results.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Silly post, IMO, Martee.

The PGA Model WAS(WAS) {WAS}!! used by nearly EVERY PGA pro in the country with DISASTER results!!!!

Did you ever go to a PGA Business School??

They taught that CRAP!
 
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cherrybarry

New
The problem I see with the PGA Ball Flight Laws is that they stress initial direction of the ball to be primarily determine by clubpath. My opinion is that clubface primarily determines initial ball direction and subsequently, clupath in relation to clubface determines the amount of spin.

I think Kuykendall's numbers that clubface is nearly 100% responsible for initial direction for wedges and 70% responsible for drivers is a good guideline, although I don't know Golftek's results.

Kuykendall, Manzella, Golftek, etc. all believe clubface primarily determines initial direction of the ball. I believe they are right.

For the average golfer who adheres strongly to the PGA laws that ball starts in the direction where the clubhead is moving and curves towards where the clubface is pointing, I can see them doing much damage to their swings.

The most common problem is the out-in swing (in relation to target) with the open face (in relation to target). They hit a push slice and think they swung in-out. First, let me say that in-out with an open face can create a push-slice as in Martee's Case 1. Both Manzella and PGA agree a push-slice will result in Case 1. The problem is with the out-in swing. PGA says pull-slice. Manzella says push-slice. A push-slice does indeed result, but the golfer may think he swung in-out as the PGA would teach. So he begins to swing more out-in. But he was already swinging more out-in, so he only worsens the problem.

But also, suppose a golfer swung according to Martee's Case 1. He swings in-out with an open face. He hits a push-slice and thinks he swung in-out with an open face, which is correct. But he makes a lucky diagnosis through the PGA Laws because the the clubpath and the clubface are both pointing right of the target, which both PGA and Manzella agree that a push-slice results. Had he swung out-in with an open face, he would not have made the correct diagnossis had he adhered to PGA Laws.

But back to the point. So he hits the push-slice according to Martee's Case 1 and thinks the swung in-out with an open face (which is physically true). So he decides to swing less in-out or more out-in. But this only results in a bigger slice as the clubpath digresses even more from the clubface (assuming was still at the same angle at separation as with the original Case 1 swing). So if he doesn't fix the clubface and swings more out-in to fix the in-out path, he will slice even more. So the key is to fix the clubface to control initial ball direction, because clubface is primarily responsible for initial ball direction.
 
Burner

Burner

New
It is without doubt the club face that determines the initial route that the ball starts out on. It is the swing path, however, that determines the balls destination.

The club face can only make contact with the ball relative to the path on which it is travelling. But, from the separation point of contact any spin imparting force, resulting from an imperfect swing path relative to the angle of the club face, then takes over and corrupts the initial impact path; hence slices and draws.

Pushes, pulls and hooks are results of imperfect swing paths married to square club faces.
 
R

revert

New
I'm just not getting all this clubface determines the initial start of ball flight. If i play a draw i align myself 10 yards right of my target with a slightly closed club face. I swing along my allignment lines and the ball starts right in that direction then starts to draw once the effect of the spin created by a closed clubface takes effect. That seems logical to me. If the clubface determines initial ball flight, why with a slightly closed clubface at impact doesn't the ball start straight at my target? I'm not saying the idea is wrong just that i don't quite get it. My logic tells me differently[?]
 
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benhogan54

New
What does a square clubface refer too? Does square mean being square with your target line or does square mean being square to your swing path?
 
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cherrybarry

New
quote:Originally posted by revert

I'm just not getting all this clubface determines the initial start of ball flight. If i play a draw i align myself 10 yards right of my target with a slightly closed club face. I swing along my allignment lines and the ball starts right in that direction then starts to draw once the effect of the spin created by a closed clubface takes effect. That seems logical to me. If the clubface determines initial ball flight, why with a slightly closed clubface at impact doesn't the ball start straight at my target? I'm not saying the idea is wrong just that i don't quite get it. My logic tells me differently[?]
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How do you know that your clubface returns to its same alignment at impact as it was in address?

A human cannot detect clubface angle and clubhead path as it apporaaches impact and later separation and be sure that the clubface is facing the target at impact as it was in address.

Your clubface is more open at impact than at address. Frankly, the clubpath is not along where you aligned (10 yards right). At separation, the clubface is pointing at where you are aligned (square your target line), and you are swinging in-out (in relation to your alignment, target line, and clubface). Thus, the in-out clubpath (relative to clubface angle) imparts draw spin and your ball starts where the clubface is facing at separation (square to where you are aligned) so the ball starts at where you are aligned. The in-out path causes the ball to curve back towards where you want it to end up.

This is the most obvious way I know how to describe your shot pattern. The clubface is square at separation to your target line and the clubpath is in-out causing the ball to start at where you are aligned and curve back left.

My point is that just because you are aligned a certain way at address doesn't mean that the same alignments occur at separation.
 
B

bullish

New
quote:Originally posted by revert

I'm just not getting all this clubface determines the initial start of ball flight. If i play a draw i align myself 10 yards right of my target with a slightly closed club face. I swing along my allignment lines and the ball starts right in that direction then starts to draw once the effect of the spin created by a closed clubface takes effect. That seems logical to me. If the clubface determines initial ball flight, why with a slightly closed clubface at impact doesn't the ball start straight at my target? I'm not saying the idea is wrong just that i don't quite get it. My logic tells me differently[?]
Click to expand...
What you are effectively doing is hitting a SLIGHT pull/draw from an extreme right alignment.

If you assume TGM ideas correct(slightly open clubface at beginning of impact)then your closed clubface(from the set up)is ideally less closed at impact.

So in the scenario you described, the ball finishes 10 yards left of your set up alignment partly due to a pull and partly due to a draw.

Do I get it Brian?
 
D

dufferick

New
Case 1
- Club face open 6* to target line
- Club path closed 2* to Club face
Result Push Slice resulting from an open club face to path and in to out swing.

If I understand your scenario correctly(path closed meaning it is less in to out by 2°, then it will be a push slice because clubface is open relative to club path.

Case 2
- Club face closed 4* to target line
- Club path closed 2* to club face
Result Pull Slice resulting from an open club face to path and out to in swing.

And if path closed 2° means out to in by 2°, then that will result in a pull hook because clubface is 2° closed to clubhead path.
 
M

Martee

New
quote:Originally posted by dufferick

Case 1
- Club face open 6* to target line
- Club path closed 2* to Club face
Result Push Slice resulting from an open club face to path and in to out swing.

If I understand your scenario correctly(path closed meaning it is less in to out by 2°, then it will be a push slice because clubface is open relative to club path.

Case 2
- Club face closed 4* to target line
- Club path closed 2* to club face
Result Pull Slice resulting from an open club face to path and out to in swing.

And if path closed 2° means out to in by 2°, then that will result in a pull hook because clubface is 2° closed to clubhead path.
Click to expand...

Wasnt what I said for case 2.

Clubface 4* closed to target line
Clubpath 2* closed to clubface (6* closed to target line)

As the rule goes, if the clubpath is open to the clubface you should get a rt to lf spin (right handers Hook)
As the rule goes, if the clubpath is closed to the clubface you should get a lf to rt spin (right handers Slice)
The reference for the path is always the clubface alignment and the clubface is always the target alignment in the system being advocated.
 
D

dufferick

New
Ok, Martee, my bad. I miss interpreted the clubpath closed stuff.

I go along completely with the clubface determining the direction, but it's done by happenstance. There is an element of elastic collision that contributes to that phenomena.
 
E

EdZ

New
quote:Originally posted by brianman

Ok Mr.ed.....

Path (plane line) is 10 degree inside out with a 6 iron.

Clubface is 4 degrees CLOSED to the target at separation.

ALL OF THESE YAHOOS THAT ADHERE TO THE "BALL FLIGHT LAWS" (AND BTW THEY ARE NO BALL FLIGHT LAWS...JUST LAWS) SAY THE BALL WILL START PRETTY FAR TO THE RIGHT OF THE TARGET AND THE BALL WILL HOOK TOWARD OR TO THE CLUBFACE ALIGNMENT WAY LEFT OF THE TARGET.

They couldn't be more wrong!!!!!!!**&^%^*^$!

The ball will START LEFT and hook more.

You....and Wiren and jacobs and all your pals LOSE.

Thankyouverymuch :)
Click to expand...



Put the crack pipe down Brian....

Basically.... clubface and path interact, the slower the impact, the sooner the clubface effect shows up, the faster the impact the more the path shows up first.

So if your view is true, prove it to me. Show me an example I can do.

I can aim my body line right, clubface square to the target and hit a shot that starts on my body line, and draws back. I can aim my body left, clubface square to target, and do the same with a fade. I can preset hooks and slices, to whatever degree I want using the 'laws'.
 
Michael Finney

Michael Finney

New
edz....crackpipe?....you're the one smokin....lets just agree to disagree....tell all your friends that are having trouble pushing the ball to just adjust their path...they are obviously swing to far right....tell them to swing further to the left and all will be fixed....good luck...you'll definitely need it...
 
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EdZ

New
quote:Originally posted by mikestloc

edz....crackpipe?....you're the one smokin....lets just agree to disagree....tell all your friends that are having trouble pushing the ball to just adjust their path...they are obviously swing to far right....tell them to swing further to the left and all will be fixed....good luck...you'll definitely need it...
Click to expand...

Again I ask you to prove your theory to me.

Tell me something I can do that shows your view works.


edit: and your example is absurd, of course if you are pushing, you have an open club to target. square the club, the ball draws back (per Laws). Change path ONLY and yes, you'll have an open clubface and a straight path - per Laws, you'll hit a shot that starts straight and fades right.
 
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