Brian Manzella
Administrator
I think you are dead wrong.
I will ask the guys at the Symposium.
Pretty sure I'm right on this one...
From the ground up???
- Thread starter jeffy
- Start date
- Status
I think you are dead wrong.
I will ask the guys at the Symposium.
Pretty sure I'm right on this one...
dschultz6072
New
From what I deduce from these players swings, I'd say the ones that are strong enough to hold their body stable well into the impact zone are the ones who give that little jump at impact. So that would mean Bubba is a pretty strong dude. I don't think they're *trying* to get that look, it just happens when they tell themselves "smash this little pill as hard as I can without moving all over the place so I can still make good contact"
That might be way off, but that's how I see it.
That might be way off, but that's how I see it.
Dariusz J.
New member
Shear forces (horizontally oriented forces) are mostly used while the change of orientation happens and/or RoM of joints ends; the most spectacular part of the swing is transition, as Virtuoso said. Observe how rear foot literally want to screw into the ground with all dynamic mass of a player.
Normal forces (vertically oriented ones) act while the changes in transverse plane occurs, e.g. before a jump. The fact Bubba and other whackers lose contact with the ground is actually a proof that he used the ground just before in even an excessive way comparing to those who have contact between soles and the ground all the time.
Cheers
Last edited:
mandrin
New
A previous thread on the same subject – Ground reaction forces / angular momentum .
By impact you have already "used" the ground forces to power your swing, which is why Bubba being in the air is irrelevant. But you are right Jeffy - using ground forces is not a golf technique issue, it is simply how we move.
The advantage of building your swing from the ground up (which you can tell Ricky is doing because his hips are turning back towards impact before the arms even finish the backswing) is that it is the most efficient way of creating speed at impact. Why? I'm no expert but the things that occur to me are:
- That it is better balanced because your footing is solid, and everything else you have to do is based on that platform.
- That it supports how the body works best. Whenever I throw a ball I start it by pushing against the ground with the back foot. The hips lead then the shoulder then the elbow and then the hand. It's natural. And that is all that swinging from the ground up means.
- And being natural it is less likely to cause injury than more manipulated actions.
The advantage of building your swing from the ground up (which you can tell Ricky is doing because his hips are turning back towards impact before the arms even finish the backswing) is that it is the most efficient way of creating speed at impact. Why? I'm no expert but the things that occur to me are:
- That it is better balanced because your footing is solid, and everything else you have to do is based on that platform.
- That it supports how the body works best. Whenever I throw a ball I start it by pushing against the ground with the back foot. The hips lead then the shoulder then the elbow and then the hand. It's natural. And that is all that swinging from the ground up means.
- And being natural it is less likely to cause injury than more manipulated actions.
Yep,
Walking versus running. Running beats walking even though the runner has both feet in the air most of the time.
Virtuoso
New
Jeffy, forget the normal force. We have the same normal forces on a bed of ice but cannot swing at all.
It is the shear forces. We use the shear forces very early in the swing the generate angular momentum. We then distribute some of the angular momentum to the club.
The generation of angular momentum is pretty much over by the time the lead arm reaches the first parallel in the downswing....a long time before impact. After this phase you start distributing the angular momentum. Once you start distributing the angular momentum, you can leap to the heavens.
Is Bubba Watson's lead foot on the ground when his lead arm reaches the first parallel in the downswing? I don't even have to look at any youtube videos to tell you that it will be.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Hey Jeff!
Just curious....
Do you know how hard it is to get nearly airborne at impact?
???
Go ask your boy....
Just curious....
Do you know how hard it is to get nearly airborne at impact?
???
Go ask your boy....
jeffy
Banned
Not irrelevant to the "shear force" theory that advocates "posting up onto the left leg" and "dig the toes of the front foot" into the ground to create a rotational force around the front leg driven by a lateral pushing motion from the back leg. The bombers aren't doing that.
Last edited:
jeffy
Banned
I took physics, don't need to ask anyone. You have to extend the lower body strong enough to overcome the pull of gravity. Easy enough to figure out if you want to take the time.
Someone fat like Kevin Stadler (through his weight) or very athletic like Bubba (through his powerful extension) are going to create more opposing ground force than a lighter or less athletic player. My objection is to the nonsensical concept that Stadler or Bubba are "using" more ground force, as though they somehow found a way to tap a "force" from the ground that isn't a direct reflection of the force they applied against the ground. The ground just sits there. It doesn't "create" forces. The player controls what force is created. And he can't "use" any force he doesn't create.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
You live close enough to come to the ANTI-SUMMIT II, you'd be a blast.
jeffy
Banned
I have no problem with rear leg shear force: with a proper hip turn the toe of the right foot will want to spin away from the target. Needs to stay put. It is the front one that some advocate that I think is BS.
jeffy
Banned
OK, sign me up!!!
Brian Manzella
Administrator
No really.
The event needs folks who have theories who want to get as close to a definitive answer as possible on earth in person.
jeffy
Banned
Yeah, I'm serious! I was thinking about it, and this was just the nudge I needed. I also want to have dinner at that Italian place in Manorville again.
hp12c
New
I was hoping you would chime in!
This would only be true if the critical time for posting on the left leg is at impact. It's not. The hips slow well before impact.
I assume the leap into the air is due to what Brian and Michael are talking about with the normal force through impact. The shear forces have done their work by this time. The rear foot shear forces at transition. The front foot shear forces ... well I don't know technically but I imagine probably by the time the arms are half way back down (and probably even before that but that is pure guess on my part). By that point the hips would have decelerated and the energy has passed up the chain.
As an aside something that occurs to me about this is Tiger's knee problems created by his intent to post up aggressively on his left leg. I would include Tiger in the bomber's group, and he is definitely driving that left leg into the ground.
Another thought is that from my understanding creating front foot ground forces is not the only way to create speed, so it is entirely likely that some (maybe many) big hitters aren't doing it well. The advantage of it is that it is supposed to be less damaging to the body than other ways, with less strain on the back and better incorporation of the natural stretch shorten cycles. So just because bombers don't use it doesn't mean it isn't a good idea. Just that it isn't the only idea.
jeffy
Banned
Don't follow you at all. Look at Bubba and Sadlowski and tell me when they post on the front leg. I say "never".
He may be doing that now, and he is no longer a bomber. But he floated the left leg in 2008 and before.
I can't see how the front foot "shear" approach would be anything but a power drain. Can you post a swing of a bomber that you think is using it?
Sorry, just thinking this through some more, and watching Jamie Sadlowski Jamie Sadlowski Target Hips Zoom 2009 - YouTube my point about timing above was wrong. The posting is what causes the jump up so it is happening later in the swing than I said above.
It seems to me that Bubba coming off the ground is actually evidence of him posting up on the left leg? digging with the toes can't be meant to mean a literal digging of the toes into the ground because nobody plays in ballet slippers. So it is about pushing against the ground. Bubba pushes so hard that it actually elevates him through impact.
Can you explain Jeffy what you believe is meant by " ... "posting up onto the left leg" and "dig the toes of the front foot" into the ground to create a rotational force around the front leg driven by a lateral pushing motion from the back leg ..." because it seems that is exactly what is happening.
It seems to me that Bubba coming off the ground is actually evidence of him posting up on the left leg? digging with the toes can't be meant to mean a literal digging of the toes into the ground because nobody plays in ballet slippers. So it is about pushing against the ground. Bubba pushes so hard that it actually elevates him through impact.
Can you explain Jeffy what you believe is meant by " ... "posting up onto the left leg" and "dig the toes of the front foot" into the ground to create a rotational force around the front leg driven by a lateral pushing motion from the back leg ..." because it seems that is exactly what is happening.
drewyallop
New
The advantage of building your swing from the ground up (which you can tell Ricky is doing because his hips are turning back towards impact before the arms even finish the backswing) is that it is the most efficient way of creating speed at impact.
But isn't this assuming too much? Arms moving back in the backswing does not mean that he hasn't started applying an opposite outward force. And if he has then the body would react. Thus the illusion of a ground up start. In reality is the body moving to support the start of the swing? But I guess we will never know until we stick needles in him.
Gris Gris!
But isn't this assuming too much? Arms moving back in the backswing does not mean that he hasn't started applying an opposite outward force. And if he has then the body would react. Thus the illusion of a ground up start. In reality is the body moving to support the start of the swing? But I guess we will never know until we stick needles in him.
Gris Gris!
- Status