From the ground up???

[JEREMY5577]

Not at all....that others are starting threads trying to show everyone how smart they are and how dumb people are for listening to Brian.

IMO jeffy, wulsy and dariouz keep these stupid things going. All of them are very smart no argument there. But creating arguments with everyone for the sake of arguing is tiresome. Can you imagine being a first time guest to this site and reading the banter between you guys and trying to learn golf from it? I mean put yourself in their shoes. I skip past anything you guys write and I'm not the only one.

 

[wulsy]

Let's be honest here: anyone who thought that there were some mysterious "forces" in the ground which you could tap into is more than a little bit naive, no?

CLEARLY the idea of ground forces relates to the forces created by the golfer into the ground so to speak which are "mirrored" by so-called forces from the ground into the golfer. Get it? It's really simple, honest.

 

[birly-shirly]

The IDEA of this thread is to show you folks how dumb you all are for listening to me.

I didn't twig that at all, for what it's worth.

Given all the emphasis on ideas like:

"pivoting like crazy is crazy"

"trying to shift weight back and forth, or NOT shift weight at all, or shift forward early, are ALL a waste of time"

" The pivot is very important for POSITIONING the shoulder complexes/arms/wrists/hands/& club."

I'd have thought that Jeffy's take on 'ground forces' would be right "on-message".

 

[jeffy]

ROFL...Verplank, Wi ? Who do you mention ? Who is Bubba ? Let me answer this way - did you see Hogan, Moe, Knudson, Trevino, Boros, DeVicenzo, etc. doing what Ray was doing ?

What is your point? Very few golfers have been able to combine distance and accuracy the way a handful of elite players have. I prefer to use them as role models. You can find short hitting major champions like Paul Runyan and Corey Pavin to copy if you want. I DON'T CARE! I just wouldn't recommend it.

Do not bring childish arguments.

Don't be rude. I'm not bringing "childish arguments", just pointing out that they exist and should rejected.

The idea of having quiet feet by a conscious action is same stupidity as have them active by a conscious action. Swing motion should be a cascade of unintentional movements.

Cheers

That sounds downright silly. Too goofy to try to undestand and respond to.

 

[jeffy]

Let's be honest here: anyone who thought that there were some mysterious "forces" in the ground which you could tap into is more than a little bit naive, no?

CLEARLY the idea of ground forces relates to the forces created by the golfer into the ground so to speak which are "mirrored" by so-called forces from the ground into the golfer. Get it? It's really simple, honest.

Exactly.

 

[Bigalandyanti]

Sorry for the Misinformation on my part.

 

[natep]

Let's be honest here: anyone who thought that there were some mysterious "forces" in the ground which you could tap into is more than a little bit naive, no?

Question is, who ever really thought this was the case?

 

[jeffy]

Pretty amazing that a thread about whether a golfer uses ground forces can get to 10+ pages. Especially when the original poster is the poster-boy for one who uses NO ground forces. Perhaps one of the most un-dynamic swings on the net..... but he at least admits it. ("My swing sucks" I believe were the words Jeffy used).

You are pretty confused here. Dynamic swings are the result of dynamic body motions. Period. No doubt, dynamic body motions work better when one stands on firm ground: the reactionary ground forces from firm ground provides better support than muddy ground. However, why anybody thinks it is a good idea to describe athletic movements of the body as "using ground forces" is beyond me. Maybe it gives people the idea of crouching, then springing up, but it seems like a pretty vague and indirect way of doing it.

BTW, this thread was intended as an attack on instructors who, unlike Brian, talk about "using the ground" to create "shear forces" that will create rotation of the body around the front leg. Look again at the first post. Brian agrees this idea is goofy. That he interpreted this thread as a direct attack on him is unfortunate but not my fault.

I have posted many examples of what dynamic motions are used by the bombers. They all go from externally rotated and bent hips and knees to internally rotated hips and knees. If Brian wants to instead describe those movements as "using ground forces", he can. It's a free country. I'd tell people what the movements are and how to create them.

BTW, I don't think this is "one of the most un-dynamic swings on the net":

FFS Brian..... threads like this only add to the confusion. I'm certain you now have golfers questioning whether they should try and grip the ground at all as you start loading opinions from guys who for all I know probably can't break an egg!!

Then they haven't paid attention. Nothing I posted spoke at all to the wisdom of "gripping the ground". Obviously to swing like the elites you need stability. Just don't call it "using ground forces".

 

[jeffy]

After all this TALK and very little EXPLANATION....

I am going to TELL YOU EXACTLY what you need to do with your body.


1. Find a way to turn your back to the target. Anyway you need to.

2. Keep your back turned to the target as long as long practically can, while your weight falls back toward the target.

3. Be as bent over your waist as you ever are in the swing when you add some ummph to the club between when your left arm is level and the club is parallel for the last time pre-impact.

4. Recruit every fiber of your body to completely lose all of the forward bend you had, as you unwind some, and shift your center of gravity forward, assisting your arms to pull the club inward.

No argument here. And you never once mentioned "using ground forces". Completely unnecessary.

 

[magicmarker]

You are pretty confused here. Dynamic swings are the result of dynamic body motions. Period. No doubt, dynamic body motions work better when one stands on firm ground: the reactionary ground forces from firm ground provides better support than muddy ground. However, why anybody thinks it is a good idea to describe athletic movements of the body as "using ground forces" is beyond me. Maybe it gives people the idea of crouching, then springing up, but it seems like a pretty vague and indirect way of doing it.

BTW, this thread was intended as an attack on instructors who, unlike Brian, talk about "using the ground" to create "shear forces" that will create rotation of the body around the front leg. Look again at the first post. Brian agrees this idea is goofy. That he interpreted this thread as a direct attack on him is unfortunate but not my fault.

I have posted many examples of what dynamic motions are used by the bombers. They all go from externally rotated and bent hips and knees to internally rotated hips and knees. If Brian wants to instead describe those movements as "using ground forces", he can. It's a free country. I'd tell people what the movements are and how to create them.

BTW, I don't think this is "one of the most un-dynamic swings on the net":

Why do track runners wear sharp metal spikes?
Why do baseball and football players wear cleats, the ground is there right? so just do your thing...
Why do basketball players constantly wipe their shoes indoors when the floor is poorly swept?
Why do golfers wear spikes?
Why does the base of a strong bridge, or telephone poll, or stilt for houses at the beach sit under the ground.
To take advantage of the stability the ground can provide.
You can redefine the diction chosen to explain it, but I'm not sure you can make an argument that the ground isn't used, and doesn't offer additional support for the movements.

 

[jeffy]

The IDEA of this thread is to show you folks how dumb you all are for listening to me.

Completely not true. Below is the opening post. How does that in any way relate to your instruction??? Where have you talked about swinging "from the ground up" and "'using the ground' and 'shear forces'"???

From the ground up???

Not in this swing:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/sFVoT9-AmIU?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Doesn't Rickie know about "using the ground" and "shear forces"???

 

[Bigalandyanti]

Excuse me for this Jeffy, but Although Camera Angles can be Deceiving and although it looks like you still have over 1" left before Contact...It sure looks like to me that you would have contacted that particular ball on the very bottom of it with the possibility of some serious dinging of the top of the Clubhead... consequently giving a very Weak Pop-up. Please tell me it Ain't so!!

 

[jeffy]

Why do track runners wear sharp metal spikes?
Why do baseball and football players wear cleats, the ground is there right? so just do your thing...
Why do basketball players constantly wipe their shoes indoors when the floor is poorly swept?
Why do golfers wear spikes?
Why does the base of a strong bridge, or telephone poll, or stilt for houses at the beach sit under the ground.
To take advantage of the stability the ground can provide.
You can redefine the diction chosen to explain it, but I'm not sure you can make an argument that the ground isn't used, and doesn't offer additional support for the movements.

Where did I ever try to make that argument that the "ground isn't used" for stability??? If I did, cut and paste it in a reply. It seems a lot aren't paying attention.

 

[jeffy]

Excuse me for this Jeffy, but Although Camera Angles can be Deceiving and although it looks like you still have over 1" left before Contact...It sure looks like to me that you would have contacted that particular ball on the very bottom of it with the possibility of some serious dinging of the top of the Clubhead... consequently giving a very Weak Pop-up. Please tell me it Ain't so!!

Not that I remember, here is the video:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/abvXs_d3j_M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

In any case, with a swingspeed that can get into the 100 to 103 range on occasion, I'm not real concerned.

Here is another one I don't like as much: too much hip thrust. Swingspeed ranged from 96 to 103 during this session; you can see the radar unit by the clubhead.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/EfHOJ5YBWqs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[jeffy]

Not at all....that others are starting threads trying to show everyone how smart they are and how dumb people are for listening to Brian.

You guys see attacks that just aren't there. Pretty lame. I disagree with Brian on some things and agree on others. However, I have NEVER said, anytime, anyplace, that Brian wasn't worth listening to. You kids should grow up.

 

[welshdentist]

Quite possibly the weirdest thread ever.

How anyone can think any good golfer in the world doesn't grip the ground or press into at some point during the is beyond me. Even jeffy above looks like his motion tries to use the ground and right foot gripps and drags to his left and our right. Would look even better with a bit more squat and pressure down into the right foot at transition before the rotation and CoG shift drag it across.

Put any good solid professional player, of average length and accuracy golfer on ice in smooth soled shoes.

Watch them hit it nowhere unless they wanna fall on their face or ass.

Golfers use the ground, it would seem a lot of golfers who hit it a long way use it more. Think Greg Norman at his peak as the longest and straightest driver tearing up turf compared to Brian Gay who is very short and has quiet legs/foot action.

Some long hitters don't use the ground as much, some short hitters use the ground a lot. There would be examples of all types if you had enough video doing the opposite.

Generally speaking, longer/better players use the ground more than shorter/poorer golfer. How can anyone think otherwise.

Can or should it be taught, or do you just do it when you swing the club well? Chicken and Egg question? The ground forces are a result of good motion IMHO. Dragging your right foot deliberately is not the same as it being dragged but a dynamic motion.

magicmarker summed it up with how any sport with dynamic motion uses increased traction on their shoes. They do that for a reason. And in golf it isn't so we don't fall over walking between shots


Can we lock the thread now lol

 

[coach]

After all this TALK and very little EXPLANATION....

I am going to TELL YOU EXACTLY what you need to do with your body.


1. Find a way to turn your back to the target. Anyway you need to.

2. Keep your back turned to the target as long as long practically can, while your weight falls back toward the target.

3. Be as bent over your waist as you ever are in the swing when you add some ummph to the club between when your left arm is level and the club is parallel for the last time pre-impact.

4. Recruit every fiber of your body to completely lose all of the forward bend you had, as you unwind some, and shift your center of gravity forward, assisting your arms to pull the club inward.

That's about as simple (and perfect) of an explanation of how to perform the golf swing as I have heard on here in awhile....THANK YOU...gezz, this thread is giving me a headache

 

[jeffy]

That's about as simple (and perfect) of an explanation of how to perform the golf swing as I have heard on here in awhile....THANK YOU...gezz, this thread is giving me a headache

And I like it a lot better than "move the club and let the body react"!

 

[Weetbix]

Not in this swing:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/sFVoT9-AmIU?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Doesn't Rickie know about "using the ground" and "shear forces"???

BTW, this thread was intended as an attack on instructors who, unlike Brian, talk about "using the ground" to create "shear forces" that will create rotation of the body around the front leg. Look again at the first post.

Your first post was a statement that Rickie Fowler's swing does not start "from the ground up" and that Rickie does not "use the ground" or "shear forces". These statements are incorrect, as you have subsequently admitted when you agree that people use the ground to stabilise and that you can't swing powerfully on ice (the only reason this is true is because you can't create good shear forces on ice).

As for teachers who train people to use the ground they are not suggesting in any way that the ground produces some mysterious force that adds to what you body produces. This just displays a complete lack of understanding of what is being taught. There are a number of ways that a golfer can benefit from improving how they use the ground and build the downswing from the ground up, including:

1. If you do not start the downswing from the ground up it is hard to produce speed and to retain balance. This is because your arms overtake your weight transfer and the stable platform created when you start the downswing from the ground up and get the weight moving back to the left leg before the shoulders unwind and arms pull.

2. When the swing starts from the ground up the big muscles in your legs start creating movement which creates kinetic energy which can be passed through your hips, torso and arms to the club.

3. On the downswing your internal biomechanics will work better when you stabilise your left leg at the right time. This will stall your hips preventing them from spinning out. It will also allow your core muscles from front hip to back shoulder to use the extra speed produced when your muscles go through a stretch shorten cycle (like the little dip before you do a standing jump).

4. Brian and Michael's upward force through impact comes (at least partly) from the legs pushing down into the ground. This is also why Bubba gets air!

5. I think swinging from the ground up helps with timing.

6. As I have personally discovered better biomechanics are easier on your body.


So both starting from the ground up, and improving when and how you can use the forces created by pushing your feet against the ground most efficiently to create speed, offer potential benefits in your swing. And they are both things that Rickie Fowler puts to good use in his swing. He begins his downswing with his lower body. And he stabilises his lower body by pushing his feet against the ground to create shear forces.

 

[Brian Manzella]

This thread has made many good points and is now closed.

We do this when the threads stop being about the information in the thread.