From the ground up???

[jeffy]

Since this thread is going to stay up for a day or so, I thought I may as well make a "what I really teach" about the ground and force.

In the already shot and edited video, "Ideas about The Release," I stated that I thought that the golfer should make a little step to the right at the beginning of the backswing (small if they make a centered-type pivot, larger if they don't) and then they should never try to shift any weight anywhere.

Let me repeat:

After a step on the right foot, I believe the golfer should not try to shift—or not shift—their weight anywhere.

But every good golfer has a targetwards move of the sacrum during transition or at the start of the downswing. Snead's was smallish, Hogan's much more notiecable. Not a big fan of a lot of lateral movement but if this happens won't there be a weight shift towards the target?

But, after the golfer applies force-about-the-coupling-point mid downswing, and there is enough energy in the clubhead, and if the radius is 'in the ground enough" the golfer should recruit everything they can to pull the club toward them ("go normal").

No way to do this without using the ground to push of.

No way.

I'd rephrase: no way to do this effectively without standing on firm ground. If you were standing on a cloud, quick-sand or a lily pad, it probably wouldn't work so well. Instead of some half-baked psuedo-science notion of "using the ground", I just think of these body motions as what they are biomechanically: going from externally rotated and bent hips and knees to internally rotated and straightened hips and knees. If you're not playing in a swamp or one of your bayous, the ground will take care of itself.

 

[dschultz6072]

And Mariano Rivera "moves" the baseball and the body reacts? OK...

I doubt anyone had to tell him how his body had to "react".

 

[jeffy]

I doubt anyone had to tell him how his body had to "react".

Well, if we were all Mariano Riveras when it came to the golf swing, none of us would need Brian. But I think it is just as naive to tell an ordinary athlete to "move the ball and let the body react" and expect him to develop a highly efficient throwing motion as it is to tell one of us ordinary adult handicap players to "move the club and let the body react" and develop a highly efficient swing. That type of teaching philosophy has appeared in many different incarnations over the years and has had no widespread success that I am aware of with ordinary adults.

 

[jeffy]

When one refers to efficient use of ground forces one implicitly assumes also there to be an inefficient use of these ground forces. This feels very much as if there is some force out there which we can learn to use to our advantage. However ground forces are generated by the golfer himself.

The confusion about ground forces is perhaps a bit similar to that surrounding centripetal and centrifugal forces. They have in common to be inertial reaction forces, often simply referred to in text books as fictitious forces, hence creating the impression not to be real.

Ground forces are mainly inertial reaction forces, i.e., forces coming into being due to any motion executed by the golfer. Any motion by the golfer such as swinging his arms, squatting, generates its corresponding counterpart of ground force/torque. With no motion there remains always the reaction force equal to the weight of the golfer due to gravity.

For some it might be of interest to look at an analysis I did of a simple vertical jump, a while ago. At that time its purpose was primarily to convince someone that a person doing a vertical jump could not be taken as a closed system.

Can't argue with this at all.

 

[jeffy]

No they do not exist. They are not "forces" - self generated. According to Newton's 3rd, they are reactions to forces applied.
End of.

Game, set and match to Jeffy.

You're brilliant!!!!!

 

[wulsy]

Ya have to hand it to jeffy, he does put up a good argument. Right or wrong he may be, but he argues well.

 

[jeffy]

Kevin, apropos lead heel - watch this beautiful vid:

Ted Ray Golf Swing - YouTube

Ray was a bomber. Lead foot work is almost EXACTLY the same as that of Sadlowski and similar to young Nicklaus. I would be delighted to see Titanic Thompson's action also, but there is no chance, I am afraid.

Cheers

Yep: the human body hasn't changed much in the past 100 years, so why should the most efficient body motions change? Ted Ray goes right into my gallery of bombers that don't "post up on the front leg" and "dig in the toes of the front foot".

Right leg knee externally rotated away from the target, both hips internally rotated:

Externally rotated and bent hips and knees:

Internally rotated and extended hips and knees:

 

[jeffy]

Ya have to hand it to jeffy, he does put up a good argument. Right or wrong he may be, but he argues well.

You're brilliant, too!!

 

[spktho]

And Mariano Rivera "moves" the baseball and the body reacts? OK...

Yes to the very small amount to be a no. A baseball weighs 5 oz. Very difficult to relate to a golf swing where the mass is on the end of long(ish) stick.

I think a better description is to use the body in whichever way best supports/facilitates the proper swinging of the golf club. I realize there is a lot room for interpretation there too, though.

 

[magicmarker]

1. What is a "ground reaction force"?

Forces don't exist in isolation. They always come in pairs. Every action force is associated with an reaction force, along the same line of action, but in the opposite direction.

For instance – when the clubhead strikes a golf ball there is a force exerted on the ball but the ball exerts an equal and and opposite force on the clubhead.

Ground reaction force similarly refers to the reaction force, the earth exerts on you, due to the action force you exert on the earth with your weight.

Standing still correspond to the static ground reaction force. But moving and rotating body parts cause dynamic ground action forces and consequentially equal and opposite ground reaction forces, acting through the feet/ground interface.

Forces are vectors and are specified with both a magnitude and a specific direction in space. Just standing still, the action/reaction forces, acting through the feet/ground interface, will be very close to vertical in direction

As soon as you start creating internal torques between various body parts then also horizontal ground action force components are generated between the feet/ground interface, resulting in action/reaction torques primarily through the leverage arm between the two feet.

By moving the body briskly down or up, or even both sequentially like Tiger, one dynamically generates larger vertical action ground forces, hence creating more friction between feet and earth, allowing to generate more ground action/reaction torque without slip.


All of that came from an old post by mandrin.

It seems to me you just cannot have one 'force' without the other. They can't swing like that standing on a skateboard and the ground doesn't have any special forces we should be looking to tap into. But when the two are used in combination, it gives birth to forces that do exist even if the ground appears to just "be there, idle as ever"

 

[Dariusz J.]

Yep: the human body hasn't changed much in the past 100 years, so why should the most efficient body motions change? Ted Ray goes right into my gallery of bombers that don't "post up on the front leg" and "dig in the toes of the front foot".

Right leg knee externally rotated away from the target, both hips internally rotated:

Externally rotated and bent hips and knees:

Internally rotated and extended hips and knees:

Jeffy, you need to understand causes and effects. First, all depends on a goal - if the goal is bombing the footwork is like in case of Ray, Nicklaus, Sadlowski, etc. Secondly, there is posting on the lead leg (and a very strong one) even in the case of bombers (look at your photos in the mid row). The lead heel comes off the ground approaching impact not because they want it but because biophysics calls for it. If you need, I can explain the Ray Syndrome with biokinetics.

Cheers

 

[birly-shirly]

1. What is a "ground reaction force"?

Forces don't exist in isolation. They always come in pairs. Every action force is associated with an reaction force, along the same line of action, but in the opposite direction.

For instance – when the clubhead strikes a golf ball there is a force exerted on the ball but the ball exerts an equal and and opposite force on the clubhead.

Ground reaction force similarly refers to the reaction force, the earth exerts on you, due to the action force you exert on the earth with your weight.

Standing still correspond to the static ground reaction force. But moving and rotating body parts cause dynamic ground action forces and consequentially equal and opposite ground reaction forces, acting through the feet/ground interface.

Forces are vectors and are specified with both a magnitude and a specific direction in space. Just standing still, the action/reaction forces, acting through the feet/ground interface, will be very close to vertical in direction

As soon as you start creating internal torques between various body parts then also horizontal ground action force components are generated between the feet/ground interface, resulting in action/reaction torques primarily through the leverage arm between the two feet.

By moving the body briskly down or up, or even both sequentially like Tiger, one dynamically generates larger vertical action ground forces, hence creating more friction between feet and earth, allowing to generate more ground action/reaction torque without slip.


All of that came from an old post by mandrin.

It seems to me you just cannot have one 'force' without the other. They can't swing like that standing on a skateboard and the ground doesn't have any special forces we should be looking to tap into. But when the two are used in combination, it gives birth to forces that do exist even if the ground appears to just "be there, idle as ever"

Very insightful. I utilise "ball-reaction forces" to hit my longest drives.

 

[Burner]

Can't argue with this at all.

Dariusz, Wulsy and a few others will though.

 

[dschultz6072]

Well, if we were all Mariano Riveras when it came to the golf swing, none of us would need Brian. But I think it is just as naive to tell an ordinary athlete to "move the ball and let the body react" and expect him to develop a highly efficient throwing motion as it is to tell one of us ordinary adult handicap players to "move the club and let the body react" and develop a highly efficient swing. That type of teaching philosophy has appeared in many different incarnations over the years and has had no widespread success that I am aware of with ordinary adults.

Most people don't even know how to swing the golf club. They know how to swing the club back and hit at a ball (or a point 4 inches in front of the ball).

I would say it more or less boils down to athletic ability, and a big part of that being physical strength. How long do you think it took John Daly to figure out he could wallop the piss out of a golf ball?

 

[drewyallop]

You're brilliant, too!!

Daisy chain.

 

[wulsy]

Dariusz, Wulsy and a few others will though.

Not with you bud. Given the explanations here in last couple of pages, if you don't get it now you never will! Physics, my dear boy, physics. Maybe you skipped that class in school in favour of some more interesting pursuits...lol ROFL lol ROFL

 

[jeffy]

Jeffy, you need to understand causes and effects. First, all depends on a goal - if the goal is bombing the footwork is like in case of Ray, Nicklaus, Sadlowski, etc.

Remember our discussion of Nicklaus in the "Clearing hips" thread?? 36 consecutive fairways and greens in a major? Or who led the tour in GIRs most of this season? A self-taught lefty with a flying front leg. Or who won the 1973 US Open at Oakmont with a spectacular 63 where he hit all 18 greens/fringes? Find a highlight video of the event a watch how much Miller's left foot dances around. Or some video of Snead when he let out the shaft, or pre-2008 Tiger. All "floated" the front leg.

Secondly, there is posting on the lead leg (and a very strong one) even in the case of bombers (look at your photos in the mid row).

I wouldn't call that "posting" on the front leg; I'd call it whipping the front leg from internal rotation to external rotation. Where I've seen the term used by those that advocate "posting", it means pressing the weight into the front leg so the body can rotate around it. We don't see that in the players I consider "elites". BAWK!!

The lead heel comes off the ground approaching impact not because they want it but because biophysics calls for it. If you need, I can explain the Ray Syndrome with biokinetics.

Cheers

BUT, if those players had been taught to keep the left foot GLUED TO THE GROUND (something I witness well-meaning fathers tell their hapless off-spring all the time at the driving range) they don't do it which then INTERFERES with the optimal biophysics, presumably.

 

[Brian Manzella]

going normal !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jeffy]

Most people don't even know how to swing the golf club. They know how to swing the club back and hit at a ball (or a point 4 inches in front of the ball).

I would say it more or less boils down to athletic ability, and a big part of that being physical strength. How long do you think it took John Daly to figure out he could wallop the piss out of a golf ball?

Well, I'm an optimist and think it can be taught even to ordinary adults. But a clear understanding of what the body is doing and why, and the ability to explain it in standard anatomical and biomechanical terms, is a prerequisite. Not just pronouncing "move the club and let the body react". Good luck with that. BAWK!!

 

[jeffy]

going normal !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, you just stand on the range and tell students to "go normal"?