From the ground up???

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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Since this thread is going to stay up for a day or so, I thought I may as well make a "what I really teach" about the ground and force.

In the already shot and edited video, "Ideas about The Release," I stated that I thought that the golfer should make a little step to the right at the beginning of the backswing (small if they make a centered-type pivot, larger if they don't) and then they should never try to shift any weight anywhere.

Let me repeat:

After a step on the right foot, I believe the golfer should not try to shift—or not shift—their weight anywhere.

But, after the golfer applies force-about-the-coupling-point mid downswing, and there is enough energy in the clubhead, and if the radius is 'in the ground enough" the golfer should recruit everything they can to pull the club toward them ("go normal").

No way to do this without using the ground to push of.

No way.

I don't give a rats arse what you call it, it is like playing tug of war with a little weak devil.


 
Dariusz J.

Dariusz J.

New member
Brian Manzella said:
After a step on the right foot, I believe the golfer should not try to shift—or not shift—their weight anywhere.
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Of course. The beauty of automatism in a setup-dependent swing UNLESS one does not know how to set up. The weight shifts perfectly without any conscious thoughts and without such BS as reverse-K or lead hip high.
Brian, start START deepen knowledge of anatomy, you'll see how easier everything becomes - especially if one knows basic Newtonian physics.

Chhers
 
W

Weetbix

New
Brian, many pros and instructors have referred to a movement back to the left leg to begin transition. I know you said that the golfer should not try NOT to shift weight so you are not saying that no weight shift should happen. However, what do you believe is the problem with having an intention of getting the weight moving back into the left to start the downswing as a conscious intent?
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Weetbix said:
Brian, many pros and instructors have referred to a movement back to the left leg to begin transition. I know you said that the golfer should not try NOT to shift weight so you are not saying that no weight shift should happen. However, what do you believe is the problem with having an intention of getting the weight moving back into the left to start the downswing as a conscious intent?
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If it works for you....

But, if you get to far forward, or too far around-ward too soon, what's left to play tug of war with a little devil?
 
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Weetbix

New
Thanks. I saw some film of Steve Elkington talking about the left knee moving down the front foot line (which should be set at about 45 degrees open), which should get the tailbone to move only about an inch toward the target. Which doesn't sound like too much so that's probably ok?

Until I see the instructional video you are doing I don't know how to control and direct the hand movement so at the moment I am relying on footwork to get me into a good position coming into impact. I liked Steve's idea simply because it was specific. So much of the technique about getting the weight moving back to the left is too generic - where in the front foot? how does the force move directionally?

Maybe your upcoming video will mean I can - as you've noted before - just allow the body to react to what I am getting the hands to do.
 
D

dbl

New
Weetbix, aren't you saying something different than Brian? Brian says "no try" and you say seem to say "allow"....and even proscribe a way to do it.
 
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Weetbix

New
dbl - Absolutely I am saying that for me I need to do something different to what Brian is saying. Brian's advice was not to try and move the weight consciously other than a press into the right foot to initiate the swing. The body from there will react to what I get the hands to do.

I'm saying that at the moment I am trying to make a specific footwork move. I don't feel that I can follow Brian's no try approach yet because I don't have enough information about what the hands need to do through transition and into impact. So I am relying on footwork and expecting my body to do the rest. Once Brian and Michael release the instructional work maybe that will change.

For example, the keys that I have gathered from the information on the tour release so far is primarily:
1. The hands move away from the target at the beginning of the downswing and the club can start releasing right away.
2. The hands hit lowpoint around the right thigh.
3. The hands then pull up while the clubhead releases through impact.
4. There is no need to make any attempt to hold the left wrist straight at or after impact; in fact it is detrimental.

What I don't know is what path the hands should take down to low point - so when I tried the things above I was getting extremely variable results. By consciously managing hand path I was overriding my natural action and it wasn't good for me. By focusing on my footwork at the moment though I am getting more consistent results.

Another thing I current don't understand is the direction of the hand path from low point. Do they go straight parallel to the desired D-plane swing plane for the shot you want? More in to out than that? More out to in? Do they come closer to the body? Further away? Maybe these wont all be answered by the instructional video but until I know how Brian expects me to train the action I don't know which errors are coming from my misunderstanding of the hand path and release action and which are from other problems I have.

Does that make sense?
 
D

dbl

New
Weetbix said:
3. The hands then pull up while the clubhead releases through impact.
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With all those illustrations of dots on the hands, I'd say he was saying the hands "move" up. I'm not sure Brian has said what activates or causes the hands to move, or that in the movement that they are pulling up (any amount more than to counteract the weight/force against them) -- perhaps wrong about this.
 
W

Weetbix

New
Bernt - maximum resistance where?

dbl - fair point. I should have said the hands are pulled up, however given Brian's basic idea that the hands move and the body supports maybe my wording is actually the best one? :eek:)
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I had a great session with a promising young female player by getting her to hit shots with her left heel up all the way until impact. The point was to not use up her jump or pull up before impact. If you go to the left foot(forward) or around, like Brian says, you have nothing left. So she was planting and using the ground later which "automated" her release. She couldnt believe how much easier it was to get her arms/club past her.

I hope she can do it in her next event though:)
 
Dariusz J.

Dariusz J.

New member
Kevin, apropos lead heel - watch this beautiful vid:

Ted Ray Golf Swing - YouTube

Ray was a bomber. Lead foot work is almost EXACTLY the same as that of Sadlowski and similar to young Nicklaus. I would be delighted to see Titanic Thompson's action also, but there is no chance, I am afraid.

Cheers
 
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Bigalandyanti

New
Good Morning All..This is my First post and I would like to preface it with the fact that I have no insight into the True and Pure Golf Swing that works for me after trying to find it for more than 48 years. At the back end of my Sixties, I find myself wanting the same length and consistency I had, or Thought I had in my Thirties.

I am, therefore, bringing my question to this Forum much as one who would bring a Knife to a Gunfight in reference to my expertise and knowledge of the Golf Swing compared to you guys. Having said that, could anyone explain how the follwing could happen.....

Ernest Jones, the Chislehurst professional, who had had a leg shot off in France in March, had played
round the Royal Norwich links (standing on one leg for each shot)...Left Leg... in 83, and a little later, playing with David Ayton, he (still on one leg) had holed out the Clacton course a long course in 72. It was at once clear to
the writer that Ernest Jones at all events must have thoroughly acquired the art of obtaining his results with the minimum exertion,

Thanks in advance

Since I Received ZERO Response, Just checking if ANYONE saw this...and OR Thought it was worth any time for a Response??
 
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L

Lifter

New
Brian Manzella said:
Since this thread is going to stay up for a day or so, I thought I may as well make a "what I really teach" about the ground and force.

In the already shot and edited video, "Ideas about The Release," I stated that I thought that the golfer should make a little step to the right at the beginning of the backswing (small if they make a centered-type pivot, larger if they don't) and then they should never try to shift any weight anywhere.

Let me repeat:

After a step on the right foot, I believe the golfer should not try to shift—or not shift—their weight anywhere.

But, after the golfer applies force-about-the-coupling-point mid downswing, and there is enough energy in the clubhead, and if the radius is 'in the ground enough" the golfer should recruit everything they can to pull the club toward them ("go normal").

No way to do this without using the ground to push of.

No way.

I don't give a rats arse what you call it, it is like playing tug of war with a little weak devil.
Click to expand...

Is the "Ideas about the release" video mentioned above available for purchase or viewing anywhere?
 
F

footwedge

New member
Kevin Shields said:
I had a great session with a promising young female player by getting her to hit shots with her left heel up all the way until impact. The point was to not use up her jump or pull up before impact. If you go to the left foot(forward) or around, like Brian says, you have nothing left. So she was planting and using the ground later which "automated" her release. She couldnt believe how much easier it was to get her arms/club past her.

I hope she can do it in her next event though:)
Click to expand...



Why would you have nothing left to pull up with? Isn't the lead knee bent when you go to the lead foot, I think it's a timing issue not that you can't go to the lead foot, you just can't extend/jump too early. You could do the same drill standing on your lead foot, all that does is effectively give you one pivot point and most of the weight of your body on that point making it somewhat harder to jump but not impossible.
 
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jeffy

jeffy

Banned
Brian Manzella said:
Ah....you are just jumping on the term—not the action.
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Yes, terms can be very misleading and form the basis of myths.

When the heck have I ever said that??
Click to expand...

Didn't say that you did. This thread wasn't directed at you.

All I said in The Release thread was the golfer was going to recruit everything in their body to "go normal" with the force.

NO WAY you could "go normal" as well from the left leg.
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Sounds good to me.

Which is dead against the rules around here. But Jeff is a pal of ours and we bent them. Probably should't have, because NOTHING is being actually SAID different than what we talked about in THE RELEASE THREAD.
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I actually think it is good thing that this discussion showed that you don't endorse the front leg/shear force myth. I still object to terms like "using" ground forces" or "the ground forces help". The ground, when dry, supplies a firm base of support, but doesn't have forces one can "use" or "consume" or that "strengthen" our own forces.

Listen, Jeff and Kevin M, we now are FIRM BELIEVERS that golfer moves the club and the body reacts.

Right again.
Click to expand...

And Mariano Rivera "moves" the baseball and the body reacts? OK...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/O-EZf56AfYc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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