From the ground up???
- Thread starter jeffy
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Watch Bubba's right hip go to the sky between 1:20 and 1:24 - Bubba Watson's SwingVision tee shot Saturday of Zurich Classic 2011 - YouTube. If he isn't pushing against the ground to do that I don't know what he's doing? And he has pushed against the ground with his right leg in a lateral fashion between 1:15 and 1:20.
Can't see what his toes are doing!
Can't see what his toes are doing!
But the body reacting is the ground force thing, isn't it? It is just that the body would have reacted IN ADVANCE of the actual arms moving back the other way.
I don't understand why the obvious physical action is termed an illusion. I am not saying that Rickie is consciously starting with his footwork, I have no idea. I'm saying that the physical action starts with the footwork. Whether that is because of a conscious intent or a subconscious result of his body preparing itself for an upper body conscious action doesn't matter. The footwork comes first.
Brian Manzella
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I don't understand.
These folks are all MASSIVELY USING the ground to help them.
These folks are all MASSIVELY USING the ground to help them.
Every picture has bend legs straightening, has forward hips rising. Call it extension, call it posting on the left leg. Either way it is a good action.
What do you do in your swing to perform these actions? How do you get the external rotation and flexion going, and then how do you turn it into internal rotation and extension?
What do you do in your swing to perform these actions? How do you get the external rotation and flexion going, and then how do you turn it into internal rotation and extension?
Absolutely. You have to use to ground to squat down and straighten up. And you can't create rotation if you have nothing to push against.
jeffy
Banned
The body is creating the ground force; you're saying it is "reacting" to what it is simultaneously creating? My head hurts...
Uh, run that by me again...the body reacting IN ADVANCE to something that hasn't happened yet? I feel like the Aflac duck:
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/O-EZf56AfYc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
The footwork comes first? How do you know? It certainly doesn't look like it comes first. Why doesn't the physical action start where we can see it start (and it isn't the feet)? You're just making it up.
jeffy
Banned
No, they are standing on the ground and massively using their lower bodies. The ground is just sitting there, providing resistance. They aren't "using" it to "help them". Without the body movements, nothing would happen. The ground wouldn't provide any "help" at all.
jeffy
Banned
"Posting on the left leg" couldn't be further from what these guys are doing. None are rotating around the left leg axis.
For that, I'm going to have to charge you...
??????????What else are we supposed to "use" for "help"? Without the ground, the lower body movements would do nothing.
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dschultz6072
New
Maybe the way to look at it is they are forced to contort their lower bodies in order to keep their balance while hitting the ball freaking hard. I find it hard to believe their intent is to "turn" or "push" with their lower body, unless they have synchronization issues. I still see everything that happens with the lower body as a result of the power applied rather than the cause. It's all in the intent.
I highly doubt ANY of those players' intent is to heave the handle and the clubhead through.
I highly doubt ANY of those players' intent is to heave the handle and the clubhead through.
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jeffy
Banned
"Help" means to "provide assistance or support", something incremental to one's own, unassisted efforts. The ground can only reflect one's efforts, it can't amplify them. It is passive and inert and generates no "force" of its own.
jeffy
Banned
Polly wants a cracker!
Exactly what the ground does--provides support in performing the action of the golf swing--help. I admit, I haven't read the whole thread, so who says it amplifies forces?
Ok then, if that's your definition then absolutely the ground does not add any additional force than what the body generates by pushing against it.
So what relevant does that have to whether to generate power in your swing from the ground up? Your initial post was that Rickie Fowler is not building his swing from the ground up, and that he obviously does not "use the ground" or "shear forces".
Since then you've totally changed this to some point about the ground "helping". So maybe instead of creating whole new arguments every step of the way and totally changing what question you originally raised you can recognise that the answer is clear and definitive that Rickie does USE the ground (none of us are saying that it in some mysterious way provide him with additional power that doesn't involves his own weight, muscles and effort), that shear forces are involved in his swing, and that he does begin from the ground up.
So what relevant does that have to whether to generate power in your swing from the ground up? Your initial post was that Rickie Fowler is not building his swing from the ground up, and that he obviously does not "use the ground" or "shear forces".
Since then you've totally changed this to some point about the ground "helping". So maybe instead of creating whole new arguments every step of the way and totally changing what question you originally raised you can recognise that the answer is clear and definitive that Rickie does USE the ground (none of us are saying that it in some mysterious way provide him with additional power that doesn't involves his own weight, muscles and effort), that shear forces are involved in his swing, and that he does begin from the ground up.
jeffy
Banned
"Help" does not mean "to bear the weight of, especially from below", which is the definition of support you are referring to. The synonymous definition of "support" for "help" is "to strengthen".
The ground does "support" the golf swing by "bearing the weight from below". It does not "help" the golf swing by providing assistance or strengthening the golf swing. It doesn't have independent power. That is why the phrase "using ground forces to help the swing" is wrong-headed.
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jeffy
Banned
I was just following the flow of the conversation, I didn't direct it in any particular direction. Brian said that "These folks are all MASSIVELY USING the ground to help them." (post 45).
I see absolutely no visual evidence that Fowler begins the downswing from the "ground up". As I said earlier, you are just making it up. Nor do I see any evidence that he "posts up on the front leg" to create a "shear force" that will rotate the body around the front leg powered by a pushing motion from the back leg. That is complete nonsense.
What do you think it would look like if he was using ground forces including shear forces? If his swing started from the ground up? I think it would look exactly like it does.
Watch his lower body. The first move back anti clockwise is his right leg twists. How does he do that without creating any shear forces?
Have a look at about 7-8 second and you will see hit left knee go from turning to straightening. How does his do this without creating shear forces?
As for a description that equates swinging from the ground up with ... "posts up on the front leg" to create a "shear force" that will rotate the body around the front leg powered by a pushing motion from the back leg ..." well I totally agree that is nonsense. If that's what you think swinging from the ground up and using ground forces means then no wonder you can't see it. You push off your back leg to create hip speed and to get the centre of gravity moving to the front leg. The upper body rotates around the front leg as the pivot point on the downswing. But all of these things are part of one overall action. They blend together. The whole is moving all the time.
I don't think you're wrong about the external/internal rotation and the flexion and extension. I don't understand why you think they don't involve ground forces or start from the ground up?
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