Hand Path in Transition by Brian Manzella & Art's Dynamic Balance Thoughts

Status
Not open for further replies.

Brian Manzella

Administrator
This is a look at the path of the hands and the left shoulder from the top of the swing using Rickie Fowler as a model.

What I am trying to show is where the hands would go if the body movement is removed. Obviously this is 2D depiction of a 3D movement and has some distortion due to the limitations of the medium.

Hope you like...


<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/37186508?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0" width="700" height="394" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>
 
Good visual for those of us who learn that way. Also very counterintuitive. If they didn't do it naturally, it wouldn't make sense to the average golfer to start your hands in a direction that has nothing to do with the ball or the target. Wouldn't feel right at first...
 
Brian,

Does RF's club "jackknife" a small amount in this example? I assume he is talented enough to manange it if it does.

Great video by the way.
 
Good video. I understand the IDEAS about the release better now. Thank God for 3D machines (and of course, Trackman). You probably need a 3-4 hour video to get into the nitty gritty about feeling vs. 3D analysis.
 
Brian, is there any chance that you can put up a video comparison of someone doing the opposite of this and the related issues/problems that will cause?
 
Brian,

Does RF's club "jackknife" a small amount in this example? I assume he is talented enough to manange it if it does.

Great video by the way.

Don't forget about the 3d motion. I would like to see an overhead view, I bet his hands also move back rearward or away from the target line(in relation to his body movement) which adds to the "jackknife" look.
 
Nice video and makes lots of sense....The out toss idea didn't work for me but I have a more compact swing more like AK Anthony Kim FO Iron Golf Swing Slow Motion - YouTube so I assume that for a more compact swing the move away from the target with the hands would be much smaller because the hands are not much above the shoulder where the arms center of rotation is coming from and if the hands only reached just to the shoulders there would be no movement of the hands from the target, correct?
 
That is my question also, since my hands do not get very high. Also, from this restricted backswing, I feel I need to start releasing immediately.
 
I have a short backswing but I can tell the difference when I bump my hips forward and my hands back and away from the target on the downswing. I doubt anyone could see it but I can feel it. And when I do it right the ball flies higher and farther. It's magic because I'm not swinging any harder. The divot is shallower too. It's just so damn hard to do after years of starting my hands toward the ball on the downswing, or at least feeling that.
 
That is my question also, since my hands do not get very high. Also, from this restricted backswing, I feel I need to start releasing immediately.
I guess to answer that question you can imagine a clock (very simplified). Lets say for RF the hands are looking at 12 o'clock at the top. Everything going back to 9 o'clock is moving away from the target, so basically his 'out toss' lasts 3 hours :D and covers a lot more distance (basically the whole radius of the clock). If your arm only goes up to 10 o'clock (30 degrees) your out toss is only 1 hour and the distance you go away from the target is a lot shorter. (you would only move 13% (1 - cos(30)) of the radius away from the target). If your arms go up to 11 o'clock (60 degrees) you would move 50% (1-cos(60)) of the radius away from the target.
 
Brian - at 5:02 in your video, I understand what you're doing in moving the left arm/club laterally - that just the lateral (and slightly downward movement of the left shoulder). How did you decide how much to rotate the image?
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Brian - at 5:02 in your video, I understand what you're doing in moving the left arm/club laterally - that just the lateral (and slightly downward movement of the left shoulder). How did you decide how much to rotate the image?

I have done it with several golfers, and it sometimes is easy because you can eyeball it from the image when the opacity is down. Plus I'll pose my self through it.

No doubt is it a 2D, approximate, depiction of the ACTUAL thesis.

Next week we will do it in 3D, and post it up here for all three phases of the downswing.

Really Dramatic stuff.
 

art

New
This is a look at the path of the hands and the left shoulder from the top of the swing using Rickie Fowler as a model.

What I am trying to show is where the hands would go if the body movement is removed. Obviously this is 2D depiction of a 3D movement and has some distortion due to the limitations of the medium.



Dear Brian,

Thanks for the incredible effort over last weekend, acquiring focused data in this area analytically, by testing, and now by your admirable visualization and computer efforts to share all of your findings with us.

Several things jumped out at me while watching the video that may be of interest. As you have probably realized from our previous discussions, I trust, believe strongly, and IMO have enough scientific evidence to conclude that the natural capability of EVERYONE, is to perform complicated motor actions of the body within a common set of priorities (ie safety, survival etc) and unique constraints (minimum energy, stay within normal ranges of motion etc.).

When, for presently unknown reasons, there are 'exceedances' of the again natural and unique capabilities of each of us, our body's will respond with involuntary reflex actions, and reroute proximal and even distal elements, and in the case of a golf swing, compromise both the energy and desired path and position of the golf club.

The video above, and probably most of the videos of elite golfers, have so little of this involuntary activity that it just can not be seen at 30 frames per second in 2D. So we are fortunate then in that this video captures the characteristics of a very well trained golfer, with incredible club head velocity generating capability, and unnoticeable error-generating movements, therefore 'a good act to TRY to follow, but how far, and which incremental movements are best to change for each of us, the away from the target shoulder stretch, a larger 'back to the target' move/delay, etc.???

Two science-based thoughts/conclusions come to mind, (1) RF's body is 'reaching/positioning' for his maximum overall dynamic balance during the transition, and (2) RF is using his body's internal knowledge, and based on experience from 'millions' of swings, his uniquely-distributed use of the famous 'stretch shorten cycles- SSC' to max-out the torque generating, and measurable peaks of the kinematic sequences of the pelvis, torso, shoulder complexes, and the arms. Yes BOTH arms, as it is clear in full swing videos of elite golfers that the right arm and hand contribute to the development of maximum club head velocity without having to be a pure 'hitter'.

So what do I think this might mean to all of us seeking improvement from golf 'truth' ?? Certainly it very loudly reinforced in my mind, the crucial need to 'marry, and synchronize' the use of force plates (and the resultant ground reaction forces) ideally with higher frequency video, 3D and Trackman. Then for the first time we will be able to see, analyze and determine how each golfer performs naturally, and which 'swing-optimizing' changes should be made and to what degree for their unique set-up and transition phases. Again, I am convinced that NOTHING can/should be planned and executed during the short duration downswing.

Thanks again for your dedication and desire to communicate your findings,
Art
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top