Hand Path in Transition by Brian Manzella & Art's Dynamic Balance Thoughts

[art]

SteveT.
So not only are you a tennis player, a basketballer, a ballroom-dancer, part-time Einstein and a full-time donkey-botherer, but you've also added to that impressive resume the title of revisionist historian.

Nobody rose up against you because your scientific posturings were undermining any notions of feel being the final arbiter and nobody poo-pooed the science; you just never adequately explained how a golfer, in the midst of a swing where he can only see the tool he is using for perhaps 5% of the action, is supposed to translate the science into a quality motion.

Give us your prescription of how a golfer should receive knowledge of where he is and what he's doing mid-swing. F--l seems to me the only way to do it, (I left the e's out so you add them in, plus, no doubt, many more as you see fit!) Please don't present us to Art - a new and welcome addition - as a bunch of fanatics busily tying you to an internet stake to burn you for heresy: Completely unfair and at best disingenuous on your part, you naughty man, you.

I for one will be very unhappy if you're banned ( I don't believe I read ANY posts suggesting you should be) and I would never hit the ignore button on you because you do bring some really great stuff to the table when you leave the mindless sophistry on the cutting-room floor; however, I am almost to the point of thinking that the fun for you is the argument itself, rather than the discovery quest. The moment you can no longer shovel forum members' words into that little polemic package you create, it seems the game becomes a lot less fun for you.

You're not mean, spiteful or nasty and I'm sure you're a great guy, but please be a little more accomodating and a lot less derisive and condescending. Remember, there are many members here that don't post; perhaps some are scientists who could bury you with a quick tickle of the keyboard...And, if the science is too facile here, I'm sure CERN has a great website where you can really mix it with guys who won't mistake feeeeeeeeeeelings with the scientific process.
Regards
Oliver/Olivero/Olivera/Olivereeeeeeeeeeee1

Dear OLIVER1, ekennedy, SteveT, and the rest of this blog family,

Once in a while being 'the new kid on the block' has its advantages, or at least this 'new kid' thinks it might.

I am in awe at the depth of knowledge of you, and many of the other generous participants on Brian's blogs.

What 'the new kid' FEELS however, is that a lot of time is spent 'jousting' for reasons IMO, only a schooled psychologist could explain, lessening the opportunities for the rest of us to really understand WHAT YOU THINK, and much more important to me, WHAT YOU KNOW.

In my career, I was certainly a consensus seeker, but I often had to suggest, and sometimes DEMAND that contrary opinions had to be attached with the contrarians preferred solution, not just criticism of the options being considered.

So, as I hope my blog entries to date will indicate, I am trying hard to separate my opinions (IMO) from scientific facts I have obtained from the work of others, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, ADD VALUE, and hope and pray, as a result, make each situation/subject a little bit better.

In this new world of science supported golf instruction, my 5 years of experience have certainly convinced me that the science is USELESS if the professional instructor doesn't understand or believe it. Very unfortunately, the percentage of instructors that are even willing to listen to simple golf-related science is at most 10 %, EXCEPT FOR THOSE ON THIS SITE.

It is for this very reason that I am pleased and proud to have been welcomed so warmly into ' Manzellaland' initially by Brian and a few of his close associates, Jon Hardesty, Mike Finney, Billy Mc Kinney, and more recently, Chris Como and the rest of you in this 'land of blog'.

So, finally, my conclusion, plan of action, and a suggestion to all of us dedicated to find and share 'golf truth', is to give EVERY ONE of your inputs/responses an objective 'value-added test'.

Sincerely and appreciatively,
art (aka arturo)

 

[Brian Manzella]

Dear OLIVER1, ekennedy, SteveT, and the rest of this blog family,

Once in a while being 'the new kid on the block' has its advantages, or at least this 'new kid' thinks it might.

I am in awe at the depth of knowledge of you, and many of the other generous participants on Brian's blogs.

What 'the new kid' FEELS however, is that a lot of time is spent 'jousting' for reasons IMO, only a schooled psychologist could explain, lessening the opportunities for the rest of us to really understand WHAT YOU THINK, and much more important to me, WHAT YOU KNOW.

In my career, I was certainly a consensus seeker, but I often had to suggest, and sometimes DEMAND that contrary opinions had to be attached with the contrarians preferred solution, not just criticism of the options being considered.

So, as I hope my blog entries to date will indicate, I am trying hard to separate my opinions (IMO) from scientific facts I have obtained from the work of others, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, ADD VALUE, and hope and pray, as a result, make each situation/subject a little bit better.

In this new world of science supported golf instruction, my 5 years of experience have certainly convinced me that the science is USELESS if the professional instructor doesn't understand or believe it. Very unfortunately, the percentage of instructors that are even willing to listen to simple golf-related science is at most 10 %, EXCEPT FOR THOSE ON THIS SITE.

It is for this very reason that I am pleased and proud to have been welcomed so warmly into ' Manzellaland' initially by Brian and a few of his close associates, Jon Hardesty, Mike Finney, Billy Mc Kinney, and more recently, Chris Como and the rest of you in this 'land of blog'.

So, finally, my conclusion, plan of action, and a suggestion to all of us dedicated to find and share 'golf truth', is to give EVERY ONE of your inputs/responses an objective 'value-added test'.

Sincerely and appreciatively,
art (aka arturo)

Hall of fame post....(didn't take long not-so-old dog)

 

[SteveT]

Arturo.... thank you for your vote of confidence... even though you may not approve of my approach of stuffing 'science' down the throats of the ungrateful 90% of golfers. It's like a family affair here .... "famiglia"....!!!!

 

[OLIVER1]

Arturo.... thank you for your vote of confidence... even though you may not approve of my approach of stuffing 'science' down the throats of the ungrateful 90% of golfers. It's like a family affair here .... "famiglia"....!!!!

You're a darling, Steve...
And very nice words Art...

 

[SteveT]

You're a darling, Steve...
And very nice words Art...
Also thank you Brian for bringing Art on board...

Your welcome ... O1

 

[ParHunter]

Ekennedy, you did it again. This video of Luke Donald demonstrates EXACTLY what I've been working on: bumping/sliding the hips forward while starting the hands back/down/away during the transition. You can see in this video and I can feel it when I do it a powerful stretch running all the way from my lead foot up through my lead side and back to my hands. When done correctly you get power and a shallower angle of attack which both lead to increased distance without trying to swing any harder. Thanks again for this great video and for your great drill.

Has this video been removed? I can't find it anywhere in this thread.

 

[66er]

Has this video been removed? I can't find it anywhere in this thread.

Its on page 4 of this thread Par, love this drill. Could anyone give me any decent drills like this that doesnt involve hitting balls so I dont knock my pelvis out of line(Im 19 not 60 ). Alot of free time and cant hit balls.

 

[Billy McKinney]

art, thanks for including me in your hall of fame post. i will let you know that i use your pre-turned hip for my students (who need it) and it always astounds them. to the person they say it feels quieter or less hectic. i'll never forget watching our host, brian add 17 yards to his 7 iron carry while doing it! your work is appreciated and i always give you credit when i show my students. thanks for sharing it with us.
bill mckinney

 

[gumper]

Bill or art,

Can you explain how a pre-turned hip would be applied and for whom it makes the most sense? Thank you.

gumper

P.S.- I also asked this question in a separate post.

 

[art]

art, thanks for including me in your hall of fame post. i will let you know that i use your pre-turned hip for my students (who need it) and it always astounds them. to the person they say it feels quieter or less hectic. i'll never forget watching our host, brian add 17 yards to his 7 iron carry while doing it! your work is appreciated and i always give you credit when i show my students. thanks for sharing it with us.
bill mckinney

Dear Billy and gumper,

Wow, what a response to what I really want to do, and that is help golfers improve, starting with what I believe are the CRUCIAL CORNERSTONES, consistent Tempo and adequate dynamic balance and stability margin in various parts of the body.

gumper, as background, last year I had the pleasure of joining Billy and Jon Hardesty in some 'golf swing research' at Billy's beautiful country club in Southern California. Billy and I had another research rendezvous a few months later, again at Marbella CC, but this time we were joined by Brian, and his traveling companion, TrackMan. I had, up until this event not seen a launch monitor with the unbelievable capabilities as 'Brians' traveling friend.

I am sure neither Brian nor Billy would tell you this, but Brian had a young student, that with his dad had come from Australia, to prepare better for a junior USGA tournament a few days later.

Billy, on the other hand was teaching a teenager from Austria, who much to my satisfaction, Billy had instituted additional dynamic balance to almost instantly change this young man from a 'fader', to a consistent 'draw-er' of the ball.

So now to your question, gumper.

And this 'art' originally from Bayside, then Copiague on 'your' Long Island feels the need to be VERY COMPLETE, since we were/are geographic 'family'.

So, (1) how to apply a 'pre-turned hip', as you put it is simply to turn your 'right' hip clockwise (closed) until it stops AS THE FINAL POSITIONING OF YOUR SET-UP. do not force anything, just rotate the hip so you, in mechanical engineering terms, 'take up the rotational slack'. Now the CRUCIAL part, if you forward press, or make any other back swing 'activation move(s)', make sure there still is a rotary/closed hips feeling as the real back swing begins. For the advanced and elite folks I have shown this to, they all seem to 'feel' a clockwise force UNDER the right foot having the additional advantage of getting the right knee almost straight above the right foot in this early part of the back swing. This too has significant dynamic balance and kinematic significance.

But one favor gumper, please NEVER refer to this as just another 'golf tip'. I have analyzed, tested and lost some sleep for the past 5 years assuring at least myself, that I will never recommend a tip-like, partial derivative solution. This 'new' right hip starting point is one of several other adjustments, NOT compensations, that as part of a totally integrated solution, significantly increases the 'dynamic stability' margin of the lower body.

Fortunately, depending on the unique aspect and the capability of the golfers trying this set-up change, like Billy, Jon and Brian, it was enough of an improvement to add significant distance AND reduce the dispersion too. Unbelievably, up to 10 % increases in distance, and up to 50% reductions have been realized, frequently, even with plus handicap amateur and professional golfers.

Too good to be true ??? Maybe, but try it, I bet you will really like it.

For a while I will protect this 'intellectual property' regarding increasing dynamic stability by 'reserving' the WHY this works for a book, or video or whatever, while at the same time treating the other CRUCIAL elements of upper body and shoulder complex stability improvements in a complete, integrated way.

And (2) finally gumper, in answer to your question regarding 'for whom it makes the most sense ??', the short, but sincere answer is everybody, to some 'unique' degree, as in general, it is hard to have too much dynamic stability margin in the golf swing, within the configuration and natural constraints of the human body. But please realize, each individual can, and probably will at some time 'overcook' the hip-back starting position, so as I have noted in previous responses, 'search' for how much is BEST for you by varying the degree of 'clockwise rotary pressure' you use in 'taking up the slack'.

Thanks for asking, and please let all of us know how this works for you..

 

[ekennedy]

Art,

Thanks again for your detailed response.

I have several questions.

1- When I was working on the Transition Drill I described earlier, I felt the deep right hip that you described, but felt it differently than I ever had previously in my swing. It felt more like hip extension, if that makes sense. My weight had not moved anywhere near my right heel, but my hip was much further from the target line...like it was being stretched. To me, this would make sense as I viewed several PGA Tour Golf swings at the Swing Catalyst (Force Plates) booth at the Show last year and didn't see any player's weight (or pressure point) move toward the right heel in the backswing, but clearly they are turning their hips substantially. The only reason I bring this up, is that some players, in an effort to simply turn their hips more clockwise at set-up (or during the swing) may find their weight shifting in that direction (toward the heel) as well.

My guess is that, for dynamic balance during the swing, as one body part moves away from the target (the right hip) something most counter balance it (the ball of the right foot.)

 

[art]

Art,

Thanks again for your detailed response.

I have several questions.

1- When I was working on the Transition Drill I described earlier, I felt the deep right hip that you described, but felt it differently than I ever had previously in my swing. It felt more like hip extension, if that makes sense. My weight had not moved anywhere near my right heel, but my hip was much further from the target line...like it was being stretched. To me, this would make sense as I viewed several PGA Tour Golf swings at the Swing Catalyst (Force Plates) booth at the Show last year and didn't see any player's weight (or pressure point) move toward the right heel in the backswing, but clearly they are turning their hips substantially. The only reason I bring this up, is that some players, in an effort to simply turn their hips more clockwise at set-up (or during the swing) may find their weight shifting in that direction (toward the heel) as well.

My guess is that, for dynamic balance during the swing, as one body part moves away from the target (the right hip) something most counter balance it (the ball of the right foot.)

Dear ekennedy,

You will ALWAYS get a quick response from me. You see, I'm Italian, but my wife is, and will always be a 'Shea', and I thank God for her dedication, great Irish sense of humor, and most importantly for teaching me "why not get it done now ??"

Back to your post, I did not see any questions but 'feel' (look out SteveT), you have some interest or concern about the weight shifting or maybe not shifting to/towards the right heel.

Actually, your last sentence is wonderfully insightful, and is the answer, or at least the start of the answer to improvement for All, yes IMO, ALL golfers.

The verification of the science involved is in process, but 'constipated' because it is going to be costly, and requires the synchronization of force plates, 3D kinematic system(s), and a launch monitor. However, in a simplistic sense, I have been analytically 'integrating' these elements for several years and 'feel' I am making progress with kinesiology departments and laboratories at 2 significant universities.

So here we go again, as promised, IMO, the 'time phased' centripetal forces of the club, arms, and torso, during the downswing, ALL pull the body ALONG, THEN OVER the target line/plane. Our only chance to 'counter' these over 100 pound forces is to actively deploy a rearward rotating lower body, thereby generating some, and hopefully enough force in an opposite direction to try to develop dynamic balance and stability.

Don't worry what part of the feet you feel the support is coming from, just put that right hip back, with the right knee over the foot, and during the early downswing, try to develop as much rearward facing 'centripetal' force as you can. You just need to be sure the sum of ALL forces stays within the base of support, between, or even under the feet, and for sure try to stay on the ground with both feet definitely thru maximum kinematic peaks about 2/3 of the downswing time to impact.

Now see how even the shape, posture and weight distribution as well as the set-up position of the golfer can have a significant effect in developing lower body dynamic stability ???

 

[ekennedy]

Art,

Is it possible that what we see on video as a "power squat" move at the start of the DS is just the right hip stretching and moving more rearward as the ball of the right foot essentially "digs in" thus improving the dynamic balance at Transition?

The way I see it, the club's movement at Transition is over the right shoulder and a deep right hip and a countering weight on the ball of the right foot gets the body about as balanced as it can be to bring the club into the ball without needing much help from the shoulders.

Am I on the right track?

 

[cnadon]

This 'new' right hip starting point is one of several other adjustments, NOT compensations, that as part of a totally integrated solution, significantly increases the 'dynamic stability' margin of the lower body.

.

Dear Art,

I've had some success using this move to eliminate (okay, at least reduce) my sway. Another thing that seems to help is to "pre-kick" the left knee in a bit to get it more behind the ball from the get go rather than having it move to that spot But I also find this feels very awkward and not so dynamic.

Is this another legit way to increase stability? If not, I'm eager to hear any of your other several adjustments. Thanks.

Chris

 

[gumper]

Art,

Thank you for your reply. As a follow-up, how should the shoulder, hands and shaft be affected by the pre-turned hip at address? I find that either:

1. the shoulders, hand, and shaft want to go along with my right hip, as if I were starting my takeaway. Or...

2. the handle of the grip moves toward the inside of my left thigh (rather than pointing at my belt buckle). This opens the clubface at address.

I can force the shaft to stay vertical at address, but it feels awkward. Perhaps something new should feel awkward? In all cases, the shoulders want to turn at least slightly, to go along with the hip.

Thanks again.

gumper

P.S.- I teach in Bayside.

 

[art]

Art,

Thank you for your reply. As a follow-up, how should the shoulder, hands and shaft be affected by the pre-turned hip at address? I find that either:

1. the shoulders, hand, and shaft want to go along with my right hip, as if I were starting my takeaway. Or...

2. the handle of the grip moves toward the inside of my left thigh (rather than pointing at my belt buckle). This opens the clubface at address.

I can force the shaft to stay vertical at address, but it feels awkward. Perhaps something new should feel awkward? In all cases, the shoulders want to turn at least slightly, to go along with the hip.

Thanks again.

gumper

P.S.- I teach in Bayside.

Dear gumper,

As a general approach, and based on my 47 years in the research and development world, it is DOGMA, to change ONLY one thing at a time to avoid putting additional uncertainty in the results.

Easy to say, and maybe hard to do but my advice is ALWAYS, put your hip back as the completion of your set-up with NO involvement or motion from any other part of your body, even during the set-up, and then as Nike would want you to say, "just do it"..

I also realize that the the hands, grip belt buckle etc. may want to relocate BUT PUT THEM BACK TO YOUR FORMER SET-UP POSITIONS.

The 'awkward feeling is normal, and if to severe, maybe you are 'overcooking' the magnitude of the right hip's new starting location.

If that does not work for you, I will have to reveal another very slight lower body set-up change, but for this blog, I really want to limit this to one change for all, and accumulate the aye's and the nay's regarding ball striking improvement.

Please don't feel this is an arrogant comment, but in person, this has never failed, since science and increased lower body dynamic stability are definitely on our side.

What may be happening in your case, however, is that the awkward feelings during/after the set up may be having small, but negative effects on your upper body dynamic stability due to slight changes in the positions and paths of your shoulders, arms and hands.

So, my new Bayside friend, please just KEEP YOUR SHOULDERS SQUARE, put your right hip back to complete your set-up, exhale (I will explain the significant science in a future blog), and perform all aspects of your your NORMAL back swing, downswing and follow thru. If you were here, I would say, "right hip back" and if you said, what next, I have many times, and would continue say to you, " now, just hit the #### out of it".

And actually, that is the only thought I hope you would have at that time, because this science-based additional lower body dynamic stability actually permits and encourages faster club head speed. Just ask Brian, Billy McKinney, Jon Hardesty, or Chris Como; all have personally experienced this improvement. Better yet, there is more coming when we get to working and discussing the science of the upper body, and the shoulder complexes.

 

[spktho]

Art, you mentioned before that it may be necessary to delay or hold the right hip back slightly longer at the transition/downswing. I have tried the right hip back at set up and noticed some stability, but only if I did what was suggested in that first sentence. Otherwise, I tend to loose the stability quickly with the right side hip/leg being out of sync.

What I have done lately is to set up normal, but feel the right hip "set" into the downswing, then hold that "set"(also feeling the clockwise torque with the right foot and the ground) until my hands and arms get moving on the correct path at transition/start of downswing, then it feels like I can use that "setting" of the right hip more in the pelvic pivot turn. It all really feels solid and more in "one piece", but happening later into the downswing than I used to. Is this a viable way of using the right hip "set" in your opinion?

 

[SteveT]

Arturo .... could you posit an opinion on the changes in GRFs, particularly the horizontal component, when you set the right hip in anticipation of the downswing sequence?

Thanks ....

 

[ParHunter]

Its on page 4 of this thread Par, love this drill. Could anyone give me any decent drills like this that doesnt involve hitting balls so I dont knock my pelvis out of line(Im 19 not 60 ). Alot of free time and cant hit balls.

I thought I was going blind but the video does not show up when you browse the forum with an iPhone or iPad. Only this morning when I browsed it from my laptop did I see the video. Weird!

 

[art]

Art, you mentioned before that it may be necessary to delay or hold the right hip back slightly longer at the transition/downswing. I have tried the right hip back at set up and noticed some stability, but only if I did what was suggested in that first sentence. Otherwise, I tend to loose the stability quickly with the right side hip/leg being out of sync.

What I have done lately is to set up normal, but feel the right hip "set" into the downswing, then hold that "set"(also feeling the clockwise torque with the right foot and the ground) until my hands and arms get moving on the correct path at transition/start of downswing, then it feels like I can use that "setting" of the right hip more in the pelvic pivot turn. It all really feels solid and more in "one piece", but happening later into the downswing than I used to. Is this a viable way of using the right hip "set" in your opinion?

Dear spktho,

Thanks for your observations and question; this blog/conversation process is GREAT in showing me the 'incompleteness' of some of my suggestions. With the help of ALL OF YOU reading, questioning and commenting, everything is getting better.

In answer to your question, I will use an actual, and hopefully humorous experience for you to pass on to your golfing friends.

At my 'science laboratory/driving range', while 'testing' last year, a wonderful friendship developed with a Mexican American employee who maintains the 'first class' range', and often comes by to pick up the empty baskets. At that time I had just picked up a used Cleveland driver, and was busy 'developing' increased lower body dynamic stability, but with my new 'toy' making a lot of noise from the hollow head of the club. "Antonio" stopped by for our usual short greeting and conversation, and asked about my new toy, to which I replied, "here, try it yourself Antonio", and saw for the first time his 110 MPH or more lunging, but powerful swing, and the associated slicing results.

'Antonio" I exclaimed, what is the Spanish word for, and I pointed to my own right cheek" ?? I thought he said "bippy", so I responded and demonstrated, and said "try this Antonio, BIPPY BACK, KEEP IT BACK".

So spktho, there is just one small change to this story, and the answer to your question. The next time, Antonio stopped to 'borrow' my driver and CRUSH a few more 250 yard and straight drives, he corrected my attempt at his native language and said "Art, its BUMPY BACK, KEEP IT BACK", to which I responded, "Thanks Antonio, I have been struggling with a good name for a golf book I hope to write some day".

One last thing, Antonio's phrase and advice is perfectly correct as a final thought and goal of the down swing BUT the human body CAN NOT perform this without great trauma SO PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS LITERALLY. What really has to happen, from a solid scientific standpoint, is that during the first 2/3 of the downswing (until again, the peaks of the kinematic sequence), the internal rotational velocity of the RIGHT hip joint MUST be significantly lower than that of the LEFT hip joint, thus honoring the clear advice of my 'golf instructor Antonio', and my final advice to all that will ever read this blog:

"BUMPY BACK, KEEP IT BACK", and you, like Antonio, will be hitting it straighter and longer.

Thanks for asking.