Hand Path in Transition by Brian Manzella & Art's Dynamic Balance Thoughts
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
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I say yes ("to start your downswing, let your weight shift to your left foot while bringing your right elbow back down to your body."). Fowler has a lot of leg drive with his left knee bowed out toward the target (weight shift) as he drops the club into the slot nicely. That's Penick's "magic move" IMO.
Everything else is "just show biz" as they say.
I followed Fowler at the Transitions Tournament in Palm Harbor Florida and for a smaller guy he can smoke the ball. Yesterday in his match against Toms he hit some moster drives in the last couple holes.
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I say yes ("to start your downswing, let your weight shift to your left foot while bringing your right elbow back down to your body."). Fowler has a lot of leg drive with his left knee bowed out toward the target (weight shift) as he drops the club into the slot nicely. That's Penick's "magic move" IMO.
Everything else is "just show biz" as they say.
I followed Fowler at the Transitions Tournament in Palm Harbor Florida and for a smaller guy he can smoke the ball. Yesterday in his match against Toms he hit some moster drives in the last couple holes.
I would say for many (including me) that the arm drop is the most important part of that move.
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
You're looking at the club, not the hand path.
For what its worth...
My assistants and I were working on a "No Tug" Drill and stumbled upon something. If you have a student make a full backswing (with a little slack), and then hold the club head and their left shoulder so that they are playing "Tug of War" with you for about 20 seconds several cool things happen.
#1- DS handpath gets immediately wider and tangentially in line with the shaft.
#2- The student's body "re-centers" itself and lowers to create leverage against the pulling motion.
We found that several isometric exercises that recreate the feel of going normal just before and just after impact (Tug of War style).
Like I said...for what its worth.
My assistants and I were working on a "No Tug" Drill and stumbled upon something. If you have a student make a full backswing (with a little slack), and then hold the club head and their left shoulder so that they are playing "Tug of War" with you for about 20 seconds several cool things happen.
#1- DS handpath gets immediately wider and tangentially in line with the shaft.
#2- The student's body "re-centers" itself and lowers to create leverage against the pulling motion.
We found that several isometric exercises that recreate the feel of going normal just before and just after impact (Tug of War style).
Like I said...for what its worth.
S
SteveT
Guest
Let's examine the "worth" of this "No Tug Drill" on a semi-scientific basis. As it stands it's an anecdotal example of something that happened to one golfer, and it's interesting because of the unexpected results.
The isometric loading has obviously stretched the body and imprinted neuro-muscular overload signals.
#1- This is the result of a stretch reflex plus neuromuscular overload signaling. Perhaps it's the same effect as swinging a heavy then a light club. How much training would be needed to make this a permanent change, because such neural signals are usually transitory?
#2- If the student's body "re-centers" and "lowers", that would suggest the GRF leverage has changed to get these results. I assume this effect occurs in the isometric state so the resistance is created at the top of the swing. If so, what happens in the swing state, did the student do the same?
What were the "going normal" isometric exercises applied in the before/after impact position, and what were the results? Thanks.
No doubt, this will be a very non-scientific analysis. Despite the fact that I've played and taught the game for the majority of my life, the best I could muster in Physics was a "C." On a positive note, my lack of interest in engineering and physics kept me from ever reading The Golfing Machine.
My anectodal, non-scientific observations...
When the club swings back to the top and changes direction, the reversing momentum makes the clubhead feel heavier. Some players reverse that momentum by tugging on the left shoulder or driving their hands out toward the ball. By holding the player's clubhead and left shoulder lightly at the top it created some resistance and directed the club away from the target. After several seconds, the player tends to start pushing off the instep of the right foot to brace itself against the pulling motion/trying to win the tug of war. We also noticed a slight squatting motion as well as a slight lateral move of the head toward the target. The right hip also remained in a deeper position, almost as if it was counter-balancing itself against the right insteps move toward the target. All in all, it looked, and felt, more like a tour quality transition. If a player has never actually felt any of those sensations, it may help.
As far as how much training would it take to make the motion permanent as opposed to transitory, who knows? I'm just trying to help.
My anectodal, non-scientific observations...
When the club swings back to the top and changes direction, the reversing momentum makes the clubhead feel heavier. Some players reverse that momentum by tugging on the left shoulder or driving their hands out toward the ball. By holding the player's clubhead and left shoulder lightly at the top it created some resistance and directed the club away from the target. After several seconds, the player tends to start pushing off the instep of the right foot to brace itself against the pulling motion/trying to win the tug of war. We also noticed a slight squatting motion as well as a slight lateral move of the head toward the target. The right hip also remained in a deeper position, almost as if it was counter-balancing itself against the right insteps move toward the target. All in all, it looked, and felt, more like a tour quality transition. If a player has never actually felt any of those sensations, it may help.
As far as how much training would it take to make the motion permanent as opposed to transitory, who knows? I'm just trying to help.
Tony D'Antonio
New
Ekennedy, this sounds like it has great promise. I've been working on this sort of transition move with varying degrees of success. Next time at the range I'm going to ask the cutest girl there to hold my club to prevent me from tugging it. Ok, bad joke. Seriously, your drill sounds like good stuff and I'm going to try it. Thanks for taking the time to explain it in such detail. We 'unscientifical' folk appreciate it.
i agree, this sounds like a great drill.
making it easier to work on the transition move is one of the advantages, i think, of a "no backswing" swing or any swing (or drill) where you separate the backswing and downswing.
I'm quite sure I didn't "invent" the drill and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the teachers on this forum don't already use a version of it. I just know, from experience, that trying to explain a complex move like transition is a difficult task, especially from a static/posed position. I don't think you can feel any of the dynamics, especially in the lower body, without some resistance.
Picture Luke doing this drill with me holding his club from the top.
It makes me think that quicker pace and speed of most Tour swings (backswing included) allows them to use that change in direction as leverage for the downswing and improves their dynamic balance.
Most amateur swings look more like a Japanese pitcher. Slow deliberate wind-up, a hesitation and then a violent move from the top.
Picture Luke doing this drill with me holding his club from the top.
It makes me think that quicker pace and speed of most Tour swings (backswing included) allows them to use that change in direction as leverage for the downswing and improves their dynamic balance.
Most amateur swings look more like a Japanese pitcher. Slow deliberate wind-up, a hesitation and then a violent move from the top.
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Tony D'Antonio
New
Ekennedy, you did it again. This video of Luke Donald demonstrates EXACTLY what I've been working on: bumping/sliding the hips forward while starting the hands back/down/away during the transition. You can see in this video and I can feel it when I do it a powerful stretch running all the way from my lead foot up through my lead side and back to my hands. When done correctly you get power and a shallower angle of attack which both lead to increased distance without trying to swing any harder. Thanks again for this great video and for your great drill.
Dear ekennedy,
I want to say thanks for your participation and comments which for me clearly indicate the value of 'additional' dynamic balance and stability activity, in this case during transition. Also, your 'hands-on communication/drill with the student(s) to provide them 'awareness/feel' for this previously unrealized movement IMO (but research and testing in progress) will expedite and best of all help them RETAIN the desire to repeat the move, as they witness and mentally RECORD the feedback from the ball-flight results.
Wouldn't it be rewarding if we all had access to dual force plates to see the difference in ground reaction forces (and dynamic stability changes) as your students made this move a consistent habit ??
And, BTW (I'm starting to understand the blog language..old dog, new tricks ??), the bounce (club head feeling heavier) and stretch activity accompanying the transition is VERY verifiable as an additional torque generator for muscles in the shoulder complex. BUT, be careful, as the stretch-shorten (SSC) aspects of muscles are 'velocity dependent', and vary for muscle types and groups, so more is not necessarily better. At any rate, the overall description of what you are doing, and how the student is responding very clearly indicates to me that there certainly is student-unique 'dynamic stability' AND club head velocity 'optimizing' going on.
Finally, if you would take the time to read the 'Awareness Instruction' exchange in an earlier string regarding Tim Gallwey's "The Inner Game of Golf", I am confident because of the low velocities during the back swing thru transition, there is ample time to incorporate 'awareness learning' in this HIGH PAYOFF area.
S
SteveT
Guest
arturo: Very interesting observations for ekennedy, which should be helpful in combining feedback feel and feedforward "awareness".
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SteveT.
So not only are you a tennis player, a basketballer, a ballroom-dancer, part-time Einstein and a full-time donkey-botherer, but you've also added to that impressive resume the title of revisionist historian.
Nobody rose up against you because your scientific posturings were undermining any notions of feel being the final arbiter and nobody poo-pooed the science; you just never adequately explained how a golfer, in the midst of a swing where he can only see the tool he is using for perhaps 5% of the action, is supposed to translate the science into a quality motion.
Give us your prescription of how a golfer should receive knowledge of where he is and what he's doing mid-swing. F--l seems to me the only way to do it, (I left the e's out so you add them in, plus, no doubt, many more as you see fit!) Please don't present us to Art - a new and welcome addition - as a bunch of fanatics busily tying you to an internet stake to burn you for heresy: Completely unfair and at best disingenuous on your part, you naughty man, you.
I for one will be very unhappy if you're banned ( I don't believe I read ANY posts suggesting you should be) and I would never hit the ignore button on you because you do bring some really great stuff to the table when you leave the mindless sophistry on the cutting-room floor; however, I am almost to the point of thinking that the fun for you is the argument itself, rather than the discovery quest. The moment you can no longer shovel forum members' words into that little polemic package you create, it seems the game becomes a lot less fun for you.
You're not mean, spiteful or nasty and I'm sure you're a great guy, but please be a little more accomodating and a lot less derisive and condescending. Remember, there are many members here that don't post; perhaps some are scientists who could bury you with a quick tickle of the keyboard...And, if the science is too facile here, I'm sure CERN has a great website where you can really mix it with guys who won't mistake feeeeeeeeeeelings with the scientific process.
Regards
Oliver/Olivero/Olivera/Olivereeeeeeeeeeee1
S
SteveT
Guest
O1 ... perhaps you have become a 'mini-me' ... with your criticisms ....
Art,
Thank you for the feedback. I enjoy reading your posts and I will certainly take a look at "The Inner Game of Golf."
I would love to hear more of your scientific explanations for my non-scientific observations.
As far as the SSC is concerned, I agree, only a slight amount of resistance was needed for the student to feel a bracing of the lower body, a slight amount of pressure near the right big toe and and equal amount of pressure in the right hip. For instance, if the player were standing on a skateboard and posed the top of their swing, the slightest amount of resistance on the clubhead would cause the skateboard to move toward the target the moment the player pulled the grip away. I'm sure thats part of the Ground Reaction and Shear Forces you mentioned on another thread. Without that resistance, the player could move the grip away and the skateboard would stay put.
Would the clubhead's change in direction at the top have a similar effect? Am I waaay off base?
Tony D'Antonio
New
nice post
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