Hand Path in Transition by Brian Manzella & Art's Dynamic Balance Thoughts

[art]

Arturo .... could you posit an opinion on the changes in GRFs, particularly the horizontal component, when you set the right hip in anticipation of the downswing sequence?

Thanks ....

Dear SteveT,

Thanks for the question, again like my response to spktho, I learn about my ''incompleteness' from this blogging process. The answer is that the horizontal DEPICTION of the GRF's during the right hip back set-up position, can be , and should move backward BUT be careful, it ,like fingerprints, will vary with everybody, and even between swings, and by clubs too. But don't despair, because what is CRUCIAL, is that it must be relocated backward to effect the beginning of an increase in lower body dynamic balance and stability improvement when the downswing occurs.

NOW, you set up a VERY interesting 'additional' point by asking about the, and I quote, "horizontal component when you set the right hip". At this time of ' set-up', there should be NO motion, and therefore there will be no horizontal or SHEAR forces at the shoe/ground interface. This ALL changes when there is any motion during either the back swing or downswing, resulting in incredibly interesting 3 axis GRF activity caused by the human body asymmetries, the angular momenta and associated moments/torques around several axes of rotation.

As background, and as I am sure he will confirm, since 2007, and the very beginnings of my passion to become more than a self proclaimed 'golf scientist', from my valid rocket scientist career, I have tormented Dan Goldstein, the owner of the 'Dynamic Balance System, DBS' to provide me with his archived force plate test results of a variety of amateurs and professionals. Unfortunately, this is privileged information, and as I understand it, a legal release of the data is necessary (maybe it's state law in Florida).

At any rate, I have only 50 or so examples from him and the DBS system, but at Dr. Dave Wurzers facility in Manhattan Beach during that same time period, we did our own testing on Dr. Mike Thompson's 'WeightRight' force plate system. Both are single plates upon which you place BOTH feet, so there are frequency response compromises AND only vertical force data are processed.

So, in conclusion, and as noted in several previous responses, the 'integrating' and scientific research with force plates ( yes one for each foot), 3d system(s), and a quality launch monitor, ALL SYNCHRONIZED is needed to 'close the loop' on all these questions.

 

[JEREMY5577]

Guys, I played around with the preset right hip for two range sessions with high hopes. I was already hitting it good so just tinkering. I could hit the ball but not dynamically. It seemed to throw my timing off and create a little unwanted tension. What could I be missing?

 

[art]

Guys, I played around with the preset right hip for two range sessions with high hopes. I was already hitting it good so just tinkering. I could hit the ball but not dynamically. It seemed to throw my timing off and create a little unwanted tension. What could I be missing?

Dear JEREMY5577,

My experience in science is that great progress is made not from success, but from failure, even if is measured with regard to expectations. You can be SURE that I will answer your every question, but I need to know a little more about your comments.

When you hit it 'good', what did that mean during the session noted ?

What does NOT hitting it dynamically mean to you ??

Throwing your timing off is understandable, but my experience testing this simple lower body, dynamic stabilizing set-up change when measured on 3 D systems, is that the TEMPO and kinematic sequence changes, yes, but always improves. Please help me better understand how your "timing was off".

And last, for a little unwanted tension, that is normal if it is a little, and when your measured results increase distance up to 10%, and you almost reduce the dispersion up to 50%, you will welcome this temporary 'discomfort'.

One last thing, so I don't have to repeat myself, please review my previous posts on both the hip, and lower body dynamic balance and stability.

Thanks for your efforts, I know what I have requested will help you, me and many other golfers.

 

[JEREMY5577]

Dear JEREMY5577,

My experience in science is that great progress is made not from success, but from failure, even if is measured with regard to expectations. You can be SURE that I will answer your every question, but I need to know a little more about your comments.

When you hit it 'good', what did that mean during the session noted ?

What does NOT hitting it dynamically mean to you ??

Throwing your timing off is understandable, but my experience testing this simple lower body, dynamic stabilizing set-up change when measured on 3 D systems, is that the TEMPO and kinematic sequence changes, yes, but always improves. Please help me better understand how your "timing was off".

And last, for a little unwanted tension, that is normal if it is a little, and when your measured results increase distance up to 10%, and you almost reduce the dispersion up to 50%, you will welcome this temporary 'discomfort'.

One last thing, so I don't have to repeat myself, please review my previous posts on both the hip, and lower body dynamic balance and stability.


Thanks for your efforts, I know what I have requested will help you, me and many other golfers.

Art, I was rereading some of your posts and think I overlooked some things. I'm looking forward to tyring again tomorrow. Thanks!! Jeremy

 

[gumper]

Art,

Thank you for your reply to my last question. When the weather here cooperates I will try out what you have suggested.

gumper

 

[jbrunk]

No doubt, this will be a very non-scientific analysis. Despite the fact that I've played and taught the game for the majority of my life, the best I could muster in Physics was a "C." On a positive note, my lack of interest in engineering and physics kept me from ever reading The Golfing Machine.

My anectodal, non-scientific observations...

When the club swings back to the top and changes direction, the reversing momentum makes the clubhead feel heavier. Some players reverse that momentum by tugging on the left shoulder or driving their hands out toward the ball. By holding the player's clubhead and left shoulder lightly at the top it created some resistance and directed the club away from the target. After several seconds, the player tends to start pushing off the instep of the right foot to brace itself against the pulling motion/trying to win the tug of war. We also noticed a slight squatting motion as well as a slight lateral move of the head toward the target. The right hip also remained in a deeper position, almost as if it was counter-balancing itself against the right insteps move toward the target. All in all, it looked, and felt, more like a tour quality transition. If a player has never actually felt any of those sensations, it may help.

As far as how much training would it take to make the motion permanent as opposed to transitory, who knows? I'm just trying to help.

My wife is a PT and I have recruited her to help get my sequencing improved so after reading some of the posts about dynamic balancing she helped me put together a training aid. We took one of those nylon straps you find on the end of those resistance bands and closed it in a closet door with the loop out. We then put my 7 iron through the loop and it puts me right in the top of the backswing.
I can now play ‘Tug of war’ with that hold on my clubhead without a person standing there all the time helping me.

It was truly enlightening what has to take place at the start of the DS to use the ground correctly, something I have rarely done and maybe never have felt. It is exactly the feels that EKennedy explains.
My wife said that it is not the end all, but is a good start to training certain muscles to fire in a certain order. The next step is to identify a ‘trigger’ on the range/course to mimic that resistance.

Just thought some of you guys might want to try it as well.

 

[ekennedy]

My wife is a PT and I have recruited her to help get my sequencing improved so after reading some of the posts about dynamic balancing she helped me put together a training aid. We took one of those nylon straps you find on the end of those resistance bands and closed it in a closet door with the loop out. We then put my 7 iron through the loop and it puts me right in the top of the backswing.
I can now play ‘Tug of war’ with that hold on my clubhead without a person standing there all the time helping me.

It was truly enlightening what has to take place at the start of the DS to use the ground correctly, something I have rarely done and maybe never have felt. It is exactly the feels that EKennedy explains.
My wife said that it is not the end all, but is a good start to training certain muscles to fire in a certain order. The next step is to identify a ‘trigger’ on the range/course to mimic that resistance.

Just thought some of you guys might want to try it as well.

JB, I'm glad you felt the same things. It was very eye opening and I'm surprised more people haven't tried it. Now that I've done it for a while, I feel the same sensation without the resistance, especially at set-up.

 

[Kevin Shields]

My wife is a PT and I have recruited her to help get my sequencing improved so after reading some of the posts about dynamic balancing she helped me put together a training aid. We took one of those nylon straps you find on the end of those resistance bands and closed it in a closet door with the loop out. We then put my 7 iron through the loop and it puts me right in the top of the backswing.
I can now play ‘Tug of war’ with that hold on my clubhead without a person standing there all the time helping me.

It was truly enlightening what has to take place at the start of the DS to use the ground correctly, something I have rarely done and maybe never have felt. It is exactly the feels that EKennedy explains.
My wife said that it is not the end all, but is a good start to training certain muscles to fire in a certain order. The next step is to identify a ‘trigger’ on the range/course to mimic that resistance.

Just thought some of you guys might want to try it as well.

My wife's a good cook. Won't even film me hitting a pitch shot in the backyard.

 

[wulsy]

I find the best way to improve your golf is to hit golf balls using the correct information while your wife cooks the dinner.

 

[art]

Art,

Is it possible that what we see on video as a "power squat" move at the start of the DS is just the right hip stretching and moving more rearward as the ball of the right foot essentially "digs in" thus improving the dynamic balance at Transition?

The way I see it, the club's movement at Transition is over the right shoulder and a deep right hip and a countering weight on the ball of the right foot gets the body about as balanced as it can be to bring the club into the ball without needing much help from the shoulders.

Am I on the right track?

Dear ekennedy,

Going back over the responses to some of my recent posts, I found a few questions I did not answer directly, such as yours above.

As to the "power squat" move you noted, for sure that is that golfers natural and 'trial and error' way of having and discovered their way of generating increased dynamic balance, and for sure it will work for others.

BUT, an area I don't often see discussed and even less' written about is the POSITION AND PATH error contributions any COMPENSATING MOVE adds to a swing style. So, IMO, there is a best/optimum way for each unique golfer to acquire and develop their habit for sufficient lower body dynamic balance and stability.

As I noted recently, there is the Jim Fuirk way, the Stack and Tilt way, the power squat way etc., but to offset the composite and time phased centripetal forces generated by the club, the arms and the torso, there is left ONLY the rotation of the lower body and its cabability to offset these other very powerful DESTABILIZING forces.

On your second point regarding "without needing much help from the shoulders" you are RIGHT ON, as long as the shoulders 'go up the shoulder plane' and definitely DO NOT GO HORIZONTAL at least until ball impact.

One of my most significant findings has been how even a SMALL 'over the top' disturbance (that develops from the right shoulder complex moving forward, rather than downward during the down swing), can result in a very HIGH upper body dynamic destabilizing event, that the lower body can not re-balance.

So, ekennedy, as you have discovered by I hope not to much 'trial and error', your unique body positions during transition, and IMO, ESPECIALLY the path and plane of your right shoulder are also critical to repeatedly produce quality shots with your swing style.

 

[ekennedy]

Dear ekennedy,

Going back over the responses to some of my recent posts, I found a few questions I did not answer directly, such as yours above.

As to the "power squat" move you noted, for sure that is that golfers natural and 'trial and error' way of having and discovered their way of generating increased dynamic balance, and for sure it will work for others.

BUT, an area I don't often see discussed and even less' written about is the POSITION AND PATH error contributions any COMPENSATING MOVE adds to a swing style. So, IMO, there is a best/optimum way for each unique golfer to acquire and develop their habit for sufficient lower body dynamic balance and stability.

As I noted recently, there is the Jim Fuirk way, the Stack and Tilt way, the power squat way etc., but to offset the composite and time phased centripetal forces generated by the club, the arms and the torso, there is left ONLY the rotation of the lower body and its cabability to offset these other very powerful DESTABILIZING forces.

On your second point regarding "without needing much help from the shoulders" you are RIGHT ON, as long as the shoulders 'go up the shoulder plane' and definitely DO NOT GO HORIZONTAL at least until ball impact.

One of my most significant findings has been how even a SMALL 'over the top' disturbance (that develops from the right shoulder complex moving forward, rather than downward during the down swing), can result in a very HIGH upper body dynamic destabilizing event, that the lower body can not re-balance.

So, ekennedy, as you have discovered by I hope not to much 'trial and error', your unique body positions during transition, and IMO, ESPECIALLY the path and plane of your right shoulder are also critical to repeatedly produce quality shots with your swing style.

Thank you Art. I appreciate your taking the time to respond, your input is invaluable.

 

[ekennedy]

Art, when you get a moment, please take a look at my other drill which I think may have substance as well. It goes hand-in-hand with our previous topic.

In an effort to both initiate and maintain more right hip turn, I've experimented with my "Accelerator Drill" with terrific results. If a player initiates their backswing by pressing down and forward with their right foot (like an Accelerator) this motion forces the right hip back, into a deeper position than simply turning them. That pressure also allows them to maintain this position longer into the downswing.

On Flightscope and with a few students that need it, I'm getting amazing feedback. Not sure about the science...that's where I need your help.

 

[art]

Dear Art,

I've had some success using this move to eliminate (okay, at least reduce) my sway. Another thing that seems to help is to "pre-kick" the left knee in a bit to get it more behind the ball from the get go rather than having it move to that spot But I also find this feels very awkward and not so dynamic.

Is this another legit way to increase stability? If not, I'm eager to hear any of your other several adjustments. Thanks.

Chris

Dear Chris,

Sorry for the delay in answering, I hope you will continue reading this 'thread', as other questions/answers also relate to your interests.

I was VERY interested in your describing "my sway". In another post, for the first time I used a mechanical engineering/scientific term describing it as 'dead band'. This is the same as a 'loose' steering system in a car, which of course is difficult to steer, AND probably dangerous.

The 'dynamics' related characteristics of your sway, or 'dead band' or loose steering' is simply that it has little or maybe even No resistance to movement, or in engineering terms, NO STIFFNESS. So swaying of any degree in the golf swing lacks stiffness, and without stiffness, parts of the body, or the cars steering system can be positioned ANY WHERE within that sway or dead band.

With the need to hit a specific dimple to have a good golf shot (another post), it is easy to conclude that NO, or very little position uncertainty can be allowed.

From your subsequent comment about a "pre-kick" for the left knee, it seems to me there is a considerable amount of lateral moving going on during you swing. That makes it difficult to assess with this one exception. IMO, for all of us non professionals, a mostly rotary swing style as a baseline is better than one with lateral moves and large weight(force) shifts.

So, Chris, please just put your right hip back COMFORTABLY at the end of you set up, try to keep it there thru transition, AND JUST THINK ROTARY. IMO (but not a cop out), using your words, IT WONT FEEL AWKWARD, IT WILL BE DYNAMIC, AND IT IS ANOTHER WAY, FOR YOU TO AFFECT DYNAMIC STABILITY.

Good luck, and please let us know how this works.

 

[spktho]

My wife is a PT and I have recruited her to help get my sequencing improved so after reading some of the posts about dynamic balancing she helped me put together a training aid. We took one of those nylon straps you find on the end of those resistance bands and closed it in a closet door with the loop out. We then put my 7 iron through the loop and it puts me right in the top of the backswing.
I can now play ‘Tug of war’ with that hold on my clubhead without a person standing there all the time helping me.

It was truly enlightening what has to take place at the start of the DS to use the ground correctly, something I have rarely done and maybe never have felt. It is exactly the feels that EKennedy explains.
My wife said that it is not the end all, but is a good start to training certain muscles to fire in a certain order. The next step is to identify a ‘trigger’ on the range/course to mimic that resistance.

Just thought some of you guys might want to try it as well.

That does sound promising. Thanks for sharing that idea.

Knowing my tug tendency though, the first thing I thought about was that I would have to really make sure that I didn't get the upper body turn involved in that 'tug of war'.

 

[art]

Art, when you get a moment, please take a look at my other drill which I think may have substance as well. It goes hand-in-hand with our previous topic.

In an effort to both initiate and maintain more right hip turn, I've experimented with my "Accelerator Drill" with terrific results. If a player initiates their backswing by pressing down and forward with their right foot (like an Accelerator) this motion forces the right hip back, into a deeper position than simply turning them. That pressure also allows them to maintain this position longer into the downswing.

On Flightscope and with a few students that need it, I'm getting amazing feedback. Not sure about the science...that's where I need your help.

Dear ekennedy,

Sorry for the tardy reply, I was trying to gather a little more science-based support to answer your question.

While we will need 2 force plates AND A SYNCHRONIZED 3D system to verify WHY, and HOW MUCH you have increased the lower body dynamic stability, my admittedly 'qualitative at best' back of the envelope, first-order analysis says YES and I THANK YOU for your experiments, and the positive results. So here is what I found so far.

In a previous post, I noted from tests with golf professionals, some related this right hip back set-up position resulting in a 'feeling' (sorry SteveT) of clockwise torque between their right foot and the ground. This torque would move up the right leg and into the hip socket and for some create, and feel like reactive 'external rotation'.

BUT CLEARLY, this had to do ONLY with the STATIC final set-up position, before any back swing motion. Since I was satisfied that their position had accomplished the goal of being 'set up' for more potential lower body dynamic balance, and their goal was satisfied by the extra distance and reduced dispersion, I STOPPED THINKING.

You however, with your testing, took this to a new and better level, by adding a DYNAMIC 'stretch-shorten cycle (SSC) while starting the back swing with your "Accelerator Drill". The final right hip back POSITION change at the end of the set-up, then became a PRE ACTIVATION for your ACCELERATOR DRILL SSC, which would very soon follow with a reactive, well timed back swing sequence.

It is not so much, the potential additional forces/torques that can be generated within the body by well organized 'pre-activation and then a SSC, (for instance during the downswing when maximum angular accelerations and velocities are primary objectives), with regard to the back swing, WELL ORGANIZED TEMPO AND RHYTHM is CRUCIAL, and your approach IMO makes this much better.

Thanks.

 

[mandrin]

So, (1) how to apply a 'pre-turned hip', as you put it is simply to turn your 'right' hip clockwise (closed) until it stops AS THE FINAL POSITIONING OF YOUR SET-UP. do not force anything, just rotate the hip so you, in mechanical engineering terms, 'take up the rotational slack'. Now the CRUCIAL part, if you forward press, or make any other back swing 'activation move(s)', make sure there still is a rotary/closed hips feeling as the real back swing begins. For the advanced and elite folks I have shown this to, they all seem to 'feel' a clockwise force UNDER the right foot having the additional advantage of getting the right knee almost straight above the right foot in this early part of the back swing. This too has significant dynamic balance and kinematic significance.

art,

GOLF TIPS, MARCH 2001
“What leverage is, what leverage does and why you need it.” by Shawn Clement

In this article Shawn Clements mentions 'pre-turn'. Seeing your interest in this matter I have taken the paragraphs dealing with pre-turn.

Golf's Biggest Secret

.................................
.................................

The million-dollar question now becomes: How can I guarantee a proper turn in the backswing? The answer, in my opinion, is one of the biggest secrets in golf. In fact, I feel like a magician breaking the code as I reveal this to you. It's the secret that legendary ballstriker Moe Norman and the great Ben Hogan kept close to themselves and revealed only to a select few. It's called the "pre-turn." The pre-turn is a position, taken at address, that allows the golfer to make a perfect flowing rotation in his or her backswing and to maximize leverage. Here's how to do it.*

Take your normal address with your clubhead positioned between your heels and the ball slightly forward of the clubhead. Now, pre-turn your sternum, belly button and head slightly behind your clubhead. The triangle created by your shoulders and pelvic cradle should follow a little, as well. (As the cradle of your pelvis turns, be careful not to lose your spine angle!) Your left knee should turn in slightly toward the ball and right knee while your right hip should rotate toward your left hip. Why so meticulous? Peter Thomson, five-time British Open champion, said it best when asked if he could write a book on the golf swing. "Wouldn't be much of a book. The only thing I would describe is the proper setup. Once set up properly, the only thing left to do is hit the ball."*

There are many benefits of the pre-turn
You "pre-turn" to turn efficiently. You turn efficiently to get leverage. You need leverage to pull the clubhead through the ball and into your balanced finish. You can't get leverage without balance. You can't get a delayed hit without the clubhead lagging behind your hands. You get a great lag when you pull. All the best ballstrikers, including Moe Norman, Ben Hogan, Sam Snead and Gary Player, have described the downswing as a pulling action, and there's no pulling action without leverage.*

 

[Dariusz J.]

art,

GOLF TIPS, MARCH 2001
“What leverage is, what leverage does and why you need it.” by Shawn Clement

In this article Shawn Clements mentions 'pre-turn'. Seeing your interest in this matter I have taken the paragraphs dealing with pre-turn.

Golf's Biggest Secret

.................................
.................................

The million-dollar question now becomes: How can I guarantee a proper turn in the backswing? The answer, in my opinion, is one of the biggest secrets in golf. In fact, I feel like a magician breaking the code as I reveal this to you. It's the secret that legendary ballstriker Moe Norman and the great Ben Hogan kept close to themselves and revealed only to a select few. It's called the "pre-turn." The pre-turn is a position, taken at address, that allows the golfer to make a perfect flowing rotation in his or her backswing and to maximize leverage. Here's how to do it.*

Take your normal address with your clubhead positioned between your heels and the ball slightly forward of the clubhead. Now, pre-turn your sternum, belly button and head slightly behind your clubhead. The triangle created by your shoulders and pelvic cradle should follow a little, as well. (As the cradle of your pelvis turns, be careful not to lose your spine angle!) Your left knee should turn in slightly toward the ball and right knee while your right hip should rotate toward your left hip. Why so meticulous? Peter Thomson, five-time British Open champion, said it best when asked if he could write a book on the golf swing. "Wouldn't be much of a book. The only thing I would describe is the proper setup. Once set up properly, the only thing left to do is hit the ball."*

There are many benefits of the pre-turn
You "pre-turn" to turn efficiently. You turn efficiently to get leverage. You need leverage to pull the clubhead through the ball and into your balanced finish. You can't get leverage without balance. You can't get a delayed hit without the clubhead lagging behind your hands. You get a great lag when you pull. All the best ballstrikers, including Moe Norman, Ben Hogan, Sam Snead and Gary Player, have described the downswing as a pulling action, and there's no pulling action without leverage.*

Mandrin,
Clement's theories on Hogan are as real as his mirror butt drill. Hogan never ever preset hips, he preset feet, ankles and knees. His hips were open in relation to feet at address. Having hips closed to feet at address is totally useless biokinetically. Even Trevino with his open feet stance had hips open in relation to his feet (at least with longer clubs) which would sound as a totally crazy idea...but it wasn't, of course.

I usually chuckle at various theories on Hogan's motion. One look where one knows when to look at a slo-mo (often even slo-mo is not necessary) and usually it looks almost opposite to a theory LOL.

BTW, I enjoy throughfully your physics lectures. Keep on doing it.

Cheers

 

[art]

Mandrin,
Clement's theories on Hogan are as real as his mirror butt drill. Hogan never ever preset hips, he preset feet, ankles and knees. His hips were open in relation to feet at address. Having hips closed to feet at address is totally useless biokinetically. Even Trevino with his open feet stance had hips open in relation to his feet (at least with longer clubs) which would sound as a totally crazy idea...but it wasn't, of course.

I usually chuckle at various theories on Hogan's motion. One look where one knows when to look at a slo-mo (often even slo-mo is not necessary) and usually it looks almost opposite to a theory LOL.

BTW, I enjoy throughfully your physics lectures. Keep on doing it.

Cheers

Dear Dariusz J.,

I have read many of your posts since becoming interested in exchanging science-based ideas with experts in the area like you and mandrin.

Before I respond to him, I have a favor to ask of you. That is to enlighten me on your very firm statement that "Having hips closed to feet at address is totally useless biokinetically".

I do not agree with that conclusion AT ALL, and sincerely want to learn more from the depth of your experiences and knowledge. Further, since it is the foundation of my hypotheses regarding dynamic balance and stability of the lower body during the golf swing, your response is critical to me.

Sincerely,
art

 

[drewyallop]

Hello Art,

Would setting up with a closed stance help to achieve some of the benefit of a pre-turn? For me closing a bit provides much more leverage on the downswing.

 

[birdie_man]

The Hogan thing sounds funny to me too. My guess is he did do things that were largely different though. Something(s) w his base? (legs, feet) He woulda had to be different in order to be different. In order to hit it as well as people say he did. And I do believe Nicklaus' assessment (and others', including Moe Norman, though people criticize him too) of his ballstriking. Those pros have/had been around high level golf their whole lives.

No doubt too he musta been especially good at his own intentions, reducing anxiety and tension in his system, etc. W tension, at some point the muscles simply will stop doing what they need to do. Interrupts motion, which is plain enough to see. On the other hand, like Hogan I think said, if you are loose enough you will simply fall over, lol. Maybe "looseness" is a better word?