Haney: Laid Off vs. Across the Line, NOW WITH MANZELLA VIDEO
- Thread starter Lifter
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Lifter, consider those two conditions and that they are on the top edge of a plane. Then Laid off would correspond to an out to in plane at the bottom and similarly the across the line would be in to out near the ball.
Of course that doesn't say anything about clubface, nor about the golfer modifying the direction of the swing in the downswing, so it's certainly not a hard and fast rule. John Daly gets across the line because of his tremendous back swing but isn't hooking because of it. And a low skilled golfer could certainly be across the line at the top and then over the top (out to in) in the downswing.
Of course that doesn't say anything about clubface, nor about the golfer modifying the direction of the swing in the downswing, so it's certainly not a hard and fast rule. John Daly gets across the line because of his tremendous back swing but isn't hooking because of it. And a low skilled golfer could certainly be across the line at the top and then over the top (out to in) in the downswing.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
To be absolutely clear, mechanically speaking, a laid off club will present itself to impact in a closing manner, making it draw if anything. An across the line club will do the opposite into the ball, making it slice. The is fact, undisputable. Its also, however, taking the human element out of it. Some golfers will no doubt hook it from across the line if they grip it strong enough or time out some roll from the inside. Many golfers struggle cutting/slicing from laid off because their downswings do several things that either open the shaft more or dont close it at all. But all things equal, laid off is draw, across the line is slice. The main reason is hand path.
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Chuckle, Chuckle - Loved this one.
Kevin can you comment then on why Brian has a across the line club in Soft Draw, and laid off in NHA2? Is it to force those golfers to do something with their hands against the action of the club you mentioned? Ie...across the line tries to open the face in the downswing, so the golfer most close it. Laid off the face closes, so the golfer must open it?
Let's start with: This topic is ripe for discussion and improvement - it's an area in general (and with any) golf instruction, that is not understood very well. There are a lot of factors to consider and understand in order to flush out the answer. I'm not implying that I have the answers - but I do see the problem and I've never seen the full answer.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I agree with MikeO that this discussion may well be beyond a normal message board. What I said takes no other variables (such as golfers instincts and feels) into account. However, basically, when a club is laid under the plane at the top, a consistent hand path down and left with pull the club inline with the hands in a closing manner and tumble it out to the ball thru impact.....all the while closing up and squaring the shaft. Not saying at all, every golfer should do this. The SD pattern has a ton of good, high repeatablity moves that allow for some freedom of "release" for those drag left slicers that would benefit from said feel.
[/QUOTE]To be absolutely clear, mechanically speaking, a laid off club will present itself to impact in a closing manner, making it draw if anything. An across the line club will do the opposite into the ball, making it slice.....But all things equal, laid off is draw, across the line is slice. The main reason is hand path.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for your excellent reply, Kevin, that's 95% of what I wanted to know. I am slightly curious what "Golf 101" argument Haney would make in his defense. But only slightly. Sure sounds wrong to me, too.
Thanks for your excellent reply, Kevin, that's 95% of what I wanted to know. I am slightly curious what "Golf 101" argument Haney would make in his defense. But only slightly. Sure sounds wrong to me, too.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
If the original quote means all things being equal, then, yes, it is wrong. Golf101 needs a new curriculum.
mjstrong
New
You left out, "...f&*ked up his grip..."
Todd Dugan
New
Have to side with Hank on this one. And his view has been the "traditional" understanding. This view is based not on the effect on the clubface, but the effect on swing plane. DBL got it. By definition, the shaft is "on plane" when it is on a plane with the intended horizontal direction, thus sharing the same baseline. When the shaft is above parallel to the ground, and the shaft gets above/across this line/plane, then the shaft has shifted onto a plane with a more rightward horizontal direction (in-to-out). If that baseline direction is maintained into the impact zone, then the Clubhead Path will be more rightward than intended, encouraging a draw more than a fade. Obviously, the opposite is also true for a shaft which is under the line (laid off).
mjstrong
New
I use the phrase "all else being equal" a lot in my instruction, and (unfortunately) it's rarely the real-world case.
All else being equal, a laid off club at the top should result in a slice plane, and across the line should result in a hook plane. Now, if you measured 100 golfers in the middle, and got 50 more laid off and 50 more across the line, I'd be guessing at what the results would be. As it's pointed out above, the human element in this is big.
All else being equal, a laid off club at the top should result in a slice plane, and across the line should result in a hook plane. Now, if you measured 100 golfers in the middle, and got 50 more laid off and 50 more across the line, I'd be guessing at what the results would be. As it's pointed out above, the human element in this is big.
Todd Dugan
New
Well, just looking at Tour pros, those who tend to get laid off tend to pull/over-cut as their miss (Els, Poulter, VJ, Sorenstam), and those who tend to get accross the line tend to push/over-draw as their miss (most).
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Look, you guys are looking at what happens after the effect of laid off or across the line. The effect of an across the line club will be to open up the shaft to the plane on the way down and the effect of a laid off club would be to rise up to the plane in a closing manner. Period. What some Tour pros or Joe Golfers do from there is immaterial. Lets use some real info and not some factless observations. Cause and effect.Besides, Garcia and Fowler draw it from laid off and VJ fights a hook. Freddy hits a cut from across. Sure, Ive hit draws from across the line...only because the shaft backed up and open and I rolled it close through impact. Ive also over-accelerated from the top of a laid off position and skank sliced one. It doesnt change the fact that left alone the across position would slice it and vice versa.
birly-shirly
New
I know there isn't a lot of love for Hank on this forum, but I think he maybe deserves the benefit of the doubt on this one. Try and hear me out on this.
My take on HH's tweet in the OP is that he wasn't putting forward his own views. I think he was suggesting a re-evaluation of the presumption (Golf101) that laid off tends towards a fade and across the line to a draw. The question then isn't whether or not Hank is factually correct - since almost every golf book will equate a laid off position at the top with an out-to-in path through impact. The real question is whether conventional wisdom, or Golf101, is correct.
I think Kevin's explanations are great, although I don't remember ever seeing the issue analysed in that way anywhere else. The only thing I can think of that's in the same ballpark is, bizarrely, Hank's book "The Only Golf Lesson..." Much as I wanted to like the book, I don't think I ever quite got my head round Hank's assertion (which is the absolute rock bottom foundation of his teaching) that a steep shaft plane tends towards an opening clubface and vice versa for a shallow shaft plane.
I'm not sure it was Kevin's intention to ride to Hank's rescue like this - but as a result of this thread I think I might just understand Hank's theories a load better. I still don't think his ideal of congruent shaft angles holds up. Handpath is going to be more downward than shaft plane which is always going to drag the clubshaft out of parallel alignment. But several ideas make a lot more sense now.
Thanks Kevin!
My take on HH's tweet in the OP is that he wasn't putting forward his own views. I think he was suggesting a re-evaluation of the presumption (Golf101) that laid off tends towards a fade and across the line to a draw. The question then isn't whether or not Hank is factually correct - since almost every golf book will equate a laid off position at the top with an out-to-in path through impact. The real question is whether conventional wisdom, or Golf101, is correct.
I think Kevin's explanations are great, although I don't remember ever seeing the issue analysed in that way anywhere else. The only thing I can think of that's in the same ballpark is, bizarrely, Hank's book "The Only Golf Lesson..." Much as I wanted to like the book, I don't think I ever quite got my head round Hank's assertion (which is the absolute rock bottom foundation of his teaching) that a steep shaft plane tends towards an opening clubface and vice versa for a shallow shaft plane.
I'm not sure it was Kevin's intention to ride to Hank's rescue like this - but as a result of this thread I think I might just understand Hank's theories a load better. I still don't think his ideal of congruent shaft angles holds up. Handpath is going to be more downward than shaft plane which is always going to drag the clubshaft out of parallel alignment. But several ideas make a lot more sense now.
Thanks Kevin!
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