Haney: Laid Off vs. Across the Line, NOW WITH MANZELLA VIDEO

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lia41985

lia41985

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gailfcno said:
sorry guys for going a bit off topic, but could someone explain what backing up the shaft means, thanks.
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Here was a helpful quote from an old thread:
Lindsey Newman said:
When I say "many people back the shaft up" I am referring to what many pop instructors call inside steep. After or during the transition/counterfall, if the hand path (from down the targetline view) moves on a line that is to high or on a diagonal that appears to be more horizontal than vertical, the clubhead must fall behind and thus orient the shaft under/laid off. Now the shaft/clubhead is in essence backing up. most of the time it will reslut in forcing the clubhead to open and at impact the shaft will be to vertical. When I say the shaft will be to vertical I mean that it is steeper than is designed to be at impact.

Why is this important to understand?
Example 1 - an individual has a neutral alignment to the shot, for straightish ball flight and they have this type of out/high hand path. They have to back the clubhead and shaft under that hand path to hit the ball. If they did not back it up they would either shank it or miss it entirely on the outside the target line side of the ball. Many players and bad instruction for that matter will bandaid this move with a strong grip to help alleviate the misses for the backed up steep shaft and opened face.

Example 2 let's say a player has a hand path that is vertical and is moving down on a line between the feet and the ball (again down the line view). They now have the opportunity to steepen the shaft or tumble it so the clubhead is moving out towards the ball and also squaring the face. This is the ideal scenario. Because the player's hands/butt end of club have the potential to arrive in the location they started and the shaft can be orientd in the lie angle it was designed at impact.

Now, even if the hand path is correct, there is no reason for the clubhead to swing out to the ball or for the face to square. You may have thoughts now that say to you can i add some toss by straightening the right wrist or what about roll? These may be options in an effort to square the face, but the key is that the initial stressing of the shaft whether it be early or late must input this tumble because waiting till the bottom is folly because as we have learned the "boat has left the dock"

I hope this epic has helped.

Lindsey
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Here's Tiger and Butch discussing the phenomenon of backing the shaft up/having it fall below plane which Butch refers to as "the club laying down"--fast forward to about the 1:50 mark:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/PplQjd6ZP88" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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Todd Dugan

Todd Dugan

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Concave and convex simply mean curved. Nobody's hand path is curved through the impact zone. The hands move on a straight line...a plane, on both sides of their low point. And everybody's hands approach that plane from above that plane, and move above it again sometime after impact. So everybody's hand arc is concave, but around impact is planar. At least, that's what I learned from studying video.
 
lia41985

lia41985

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Concave:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/29CwfJL1ASU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Convex:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xqxIvS3D9_E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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spktho

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I can see where Perry's hand path could be convex from half way down and past impact. But, I don't see the concave hand path for Howell as easily.
 
lia41985

lia41985

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Todd Dugan said:
Dude, they're both concave from top to finish. Kindly explain how you interpret Perry's hand arc to be convex.
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What do you see?:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/o4YKAOaDL3M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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lia41985

lia41985

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Convex:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/r3kkueM2Y2k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Concave:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/65vPZkdQwNg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
A closer, comparative look:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2jxF6yXpZIQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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finncox

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I have to admit to being a little confused as well. I'm not adding anything to this debate, because I don't really get what's being talked about.

BUT,

could you describe what you mean (in fairly simple terms) when you say concave and convex? From where, to where is the path convex/concave? Are we talking about the top of the backswing, as you were showing in those videos, or from the top of the swing down?
 
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blehnhard

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Concave or Convex in relationship to what. By definition, all arcs are both concave and convex at the same time. Depends upon which side of the arc you are referring to.

Bruce
 
Todd Dugan

Todd Dugan

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Lia, still no verbal explanation of "convex hand arc"? Oh well.

You do, on the other hand, know your way around the computer quite well. I could use a lesson from you in that regard, at least.
 
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rprevost

New
This notion of concave and convex puzzles me also. Viewing the videos, the only thing I can see is that the respective golfer drops his or her hands down onto the elbow plane or hands only plane, thus creating a concave motion from the top of the backswing to impact. Others, with a little carry and drop, would have a convex hand path from the top of the backswing to impact. So the higher the backswing and the more inside/out one swings, the more concave. Flattening the backswing would flatten the degree of curvature. And the higher the backswing and the more outside/in one swings, the more convex. Why would identifying a swing as concave or convex make a difference?
 
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