Haney: Laid Off vs. Across the Line, NOW WITH MANZELLA VIDEO

[gmbtempe]

All I see is the LAFW at different plane angles with those two gals. I am slow so I blame my own comprehension of the subject.

 

[johnnymarlboro]

Does it refer to the path of the hands on the backswing, downswing, or the whole shebang? Well If I'm seeing this correctly, it looks to me like in the convex hand path at transition as the hands drop they move slightly away from the ball, under the plane her hands got to the top on and then drop down; whereas in the concave hand path at transition they move slightly towards the ball and above the plane her hands arrived on and then drop down. Is this correct? If so what are the implications of these differing hand paths?

 

[Brian Manzella]

The "Low Back" Hogan-Sergio Model Introduction

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/20641989" width="400" height="200" frameborder="0"></iframe><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/20641989">Untitled</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user1093431">Brian Manzella</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

 

[lia41985]

That was all-time, Brian--thanks so much! So the big take away I had is that we want to avoid convexity (visible in Vicky Hurst's swing) or concavity (visible in Anna Rawson's swing) and strive for optimal (what you illustrated in Sergio Garcia's swing), which is "the butt end of the club working straight down a plane." You've given such a helpful visual to what Lindsey Newman wrote here:

The key is swinging down with the correct hand path so when you tumble the shaft it's neither to steep ([too] out hand path) nor to[o] shallow (to[o] inside hand path)...

the overly out hand path being convex and the overly inside hand path being concave.
You also gave an awesome image to what you wrote here:

The hands should go toward a place INSIDE the ball, and then go MORE INSIDE.

 

[lia41985]

So how do you see Perry's Hand [path] as "convex"?

Based on what I took away from Brian's recent video, Perry actually doesn't look convex (but rather pretty optimal), although I don't have a good illustration program to check with. Vicky Hurst is a better example of convexity, as is Natalie Gulbis. I still think that the Howell and Rawson clips show concavity.

 

[finncox]

That was all-time, Brian--thanks so much! So the big take away I had is that we want to avoid convexity (visible in Vicky Hurst's swing) or concavity (visible in Anna Rawson's swing) and strive for optimal (what you illustrated in Sergio Garcia's swing), which is "the butt end of the club working straight down a plane." You've given such a helpful visual to what Lindsey Newman wrote here:

the overly out hand path being convex and the overly inside hand path being concave.
You also gave an awesome image to what you wrote here:

It will be interesting to see the hand path in the Nicklaus/Toms swing, and how that has to work for players that fall into that category. Maybe for those players a concave or convex hand path works better?

I was under the impression that this video was discussing optimal for the Sergio/Hogan model, not necessarily a universal optimal hand path.

 

[spmurph]

I was under the impression that this video was discussing optimal for the Sergio/Hogan model, not necessarily a universal optimal hand path.

That's what I took from it as well.

 

[lia41985]

@finncox, @spmurph: Check out the Kenny Perry clip. Track the butt end of the grip like Brian did in his Sergio video. I'm pretty sure I made a mistake earlier when referring to Perry's hand path as convex. Perry's swing is in the mold of the Nicklaus model but like Sergio the butt end of Perry's club seems to be working straight down a plane.

 

[Todd Dugan]

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/20641989" width="400" height="200" frameborder="0"></iframe><p><a onclick="_gaq.push(['_trackEvent', 'Outgoing', 'vimeo.com', '/20641989']);" href="http://vimeo.com/20641989">Untitled</a> from <a onclick="_gaq.push(['_trackEvent', 'Outgoing', 'vimeo.com', '/user1093431']);" href="http://vimeo.com/user1093431">Brian Manzella</a> on <a onclick="_gaq.push(['_trackEvent', 'Outgoing', 'vimeo.com', '']);" href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

Good stuff, Brian. Thanks. Curious if you've had a look at McClean's latest book, "The Slot Swing"? Seems in-line with what you're talking about regarding different types of swing models which can all put the club on the desired plane for the impact zone. Still love to look at those images in "Search For The Perfect Swing" where they trace the hand arc and clubhead arc. 40 years later and we're finally starting to do it again? Man, those guys were so far ahead of their time.

 

[ekennedy]

Brian,

Great video. I have a question about the placement of the blue line which disects the butt of the club at the start of the downswing. Are you drawing that line before or after viewing where the hands have already traveled on the DS, or are you determining that line is "optimal" for the Sergio model? It's not clear on the video if the line matches up with anything in particular in the BS or the start of the DS. I'm assuming that if you put a dot on the butt of the club at the start of the DS and then another dot at impact you can draw the line after the fact and then determine whether the hands are traveling in a straight line?

 

[Kevin Shields]

The blue line is more or less from where the hands decide to go down (after a float, or a shift, or whatever). The line is a plane the hands make until the buttend is at its lowest, not impact. In this particular type of swing, the hands will go sharply left of that line thru impact.

 

[mgranato]

At the risk of axing for too much free material, what happens to the hands in the other swing category?

 

[drewyallop]

Brilliant Brian. A categorization that simplifies rather than mystifies.

I could be wrong but I think 1.68 is going to revolutionize golf thinking.

Drew

 

[Matt 4-L]

How do the hands move in the face view of that model?

 

[lia41985]

The blue line is more or less from where the hands decide to go down (after a float, or a shift, or whatever). The line is a plane the hands make until the buttend is at its lowest, not impact. In this particular type of swing, the hands will go sharply left of that line thru impact.

Kevin,
Here's Bill Haas:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/yGsFzha6auA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Would it be fair to say that his swing seems to be in the mold of the Nicklaus model and his hands seem to move in an optimal, Sergio-ish kinda way--steep (vertical) drop starting down, then out and straight down a plane toward a place inside the ball and then moving more inside?

 

[Kevin Shields]

It would be an interesting experiment to see what he would do if he stood a tad closer to the ball and had his hands move more left thru impact. Club moves away from the center alot with some roll. Some lackluster final rounds this year....timing??

 

[lia41985]

Club moves away from the center alot with some roll....timing??

That sounds kinda miserable...would seem to push the path right with a face that has higher closure rate putting it in a position pretty closed to the path--pull hooks and push fades if you delay the roll or fight it (that's my follow up question)? Now that I look at it again, he does look "inside steep."

 

[lia41985]

[L]et's say a player has a hand path that is vertical and is moving down on a line between the feet and the ball (again down the line view). They now have the opportunity to steepen the shaft or tumble it so the clubhead is moving out towards the ball and also squaring the face. This is the ideal scenario. Because the player's hands/butt end of club have the potential to...be orientd in the lie angle it was designed at impact...the key is that the initial stressing of the shaft whether it be early or late must input this tumble because waiting till the bottom is folly because as we have learned the "boat has left the dock."

I re-read this quote from Lindsey. Check out these clips of Woods, Oosthuizen, and Ishikawa--for each of those clips imagine a vertical line (angled 90 degrees to the ground) running up from the butt end of club as it's positioned at address. Run the video. Let the swing play until the butt end of the club on the downswing "runs into" that line. Now note the position of the shaft in relation to the ball. Also note the face position:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/GekrFqrsSPE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7Q55EeCH-hc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ohQVBwgE57A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/64oc-Atdfvc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DmvqiekIenc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/jEiX-eJUook" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
This is the position I'm referring to:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/JYAnGGyHIaY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Is that what Lindsey's talking about? In these clips do Woods, Oosthuizen, and Ishikawa have their hand paths and the amount of shaft rotation about the shaft optimized?

 

[rickthepro]

Shaft at top

Many people swing the club on the downswing in the direction it is pointed at the top. NOT all, but it is common. Slicers swing OTI so it would be a general statement that many of them get it laid off (pointed left at top).
Hookers swing ITO and a general statement could be said that many have it across the line (pointed right at top). There are always exceptions but IMHO it was a general statement not an "always" statement.

 

[lia41985]

Perfection:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/abfrH1xvrG4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Once again imagine a vertical line (angled 90 degrees to the ground) running up from the butt end of club as it's positioned at address. Run the video letting the video play until the butt end of the club in the downswing "runs into" the line. Note the positions of the face and the shaft in relation to the ball. The shaft angle at this point is the same as the shaft angle at impact, this angle being more upright then the club's lie angle at address.