Haney: Laid Off vs. Across the Line, NOW WITH MANZELLA VIDEO

[lia41985]

Wulsy,
I think of what Brian presented as a classification system of different club, shoulder, and hand path orientations to achieve reasonable face and path combinations. I know Brian's research now flies under the flag of Project 1.68 but the classification system presented is like the Manzella Matrix--there are a host of hand, arm, body, and club motions to achieve reasonable ball flights up until a point where a shot is hit with too much curve (too much face and path divergence).

 

[wulsy]

Sorry ol chap. Not trying to be mean, just having fun...guess that didn't translate! See the happy face.

Oh well, perhaps though we could both (myself being pro about these ideas and you questioning them) wait until the full publication comes out. Sound good?

Btw you might be right but I am catching up on the knowledge. Little by little...

No problem bud. Smileys aren't showing up on my screen at the moment, so I thought you were having a go at me. Sorry if I was a bit nasty.

 

[wulsy]

Wulsy,
I think of what Brian presented as a classification system of different club, shoulder, and hand path orientations to achieve reasonable face and path combinations. I know Brian's research now flies under the flagship of Project 1.68 but the classification system presented is like the Manzella Matrix--there are a host of hand, arm, body, and club motions to achieve reasonable ball flights up until a point where a shot is hit with too much curve (too much face and path divergence).

Well formulated lia. I think you're spot on.

Brian says there are fundamentally two different swing types - Miller/Toms and Hogan/Garcia, right? He then describes how Garcia's sweetspot plane and his right shoulder plane are parallel to each other in the downswing. Great, a clear correlation which seems to work for Garcia and 50 others who have a similar sweetspot plane. HOWEVER then he goes on to describe basically every other combination of sweetspot/right shoulder plane relationships without describing any of the consequences. This gave me the impression that they all COULD work, which basically would mean that practically EVERTHING would/could work. Maybe this was the misunderstanding - maybe only the parallel plane combo works well and that all the others are inferior combinations. I don't know because Brian didn't say what happens when you use any of the other combos.

 

[Kevin Shields]

OK, point taken spktho, but what I get out of it is that there are so many combinations that classification seems almost superfluous.

This is the main point....there are so many combinations that work

 

[wulsy]

Just to be clear: I think the classification system needs to be clear and logical, maybe along the lines of a "family tree" concept.

Eg. 2 distinct syles, from each one 2 basic variations (gives 4 swings), from each variation 3 sub-variations (gives 12 swings) etc. I didn't get this impression from Brian's "classicification post".

 

[birly-shirly]

Well formulated lia. I think you're spot on.

Brian says there are fundamentally two different swing types - Miller/Toms and Hogan/Garcia, right? He then describes how Garcia's sweetspot plane and his right shoulder plane are parallel to each other in the downswing. Great, a clear correlation which seems to work for Garcia and 50 others who have a similar sweetspot plane. HOWEVER then he goes on to describe basically every other combination of sweetspot/right shoulder plane relationships without describing any of the consequences. This gave me the impression that they all COULD work, which basically would mean that practically EVERTHING would/could work. Maybe this was the misunderstanding - maybe only the parallel plane combo works well and that all the others are inferior combinations. I don't know because Brian didn't say what happens when you use any of the other combos.

I'm interested to see where this goes. Classification for the sake of classification doesn't do much for me. Classifications that hold some predictive power about ball-flight are much more interesting. Brian said this on another thread:

Simple.

Tiger is an elbow planer—Always has been.

He always has had steep shoulders—a low right shoulder—through the ball.

This is a mismatch for anything but an aim left cut/push, or a slinging draw. No problem, he has won majors with both shots working.

[...]

If that kind of thinking gets rolled out across the different possible combinations, then I think that would be terrific.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Incidentally, I dont want to speak for Brian, but cant he withold some information? He does have a book in the works.

 

[birly-shirly]

Of course he can.

Speaking for myself, I don't think I really want to see it given away on the website. I don't think forum posts or even blogs are the best way of presenting that kind of information. I would rather buy it, properly and fully set out in a book. With lots of pictures. And footnotes.

If the forum then becomes the place to bring further questions, then that's a bonus.

 

[lia41985]

Shoulders still look too steep:

http://www.pgatour.com/video/r/high...2_7_2nd_brd_ng_woods_08793.pgatour/index.html

I wonder if Sean could drill this feel with Tiger to get him less steep:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/qoG9qpAxFjU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
I think it would help him in this regard:

Covering the ball, in the vernacular that I am familiar with, means a higher, "on top of it" right shoulder through impact.

In our research, this works very well with flatter eventual sweetspot/CoG/GoI paths.

So, an example of a golfer who would aim left and cover it would be Ben Hogan.

Right now he still seems to be stuck in this feel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSxRYzWWGKQ#t=51s

Perhaps this has to do with Tiger's ACL injury:

The ACL is critically important because it prevents the tibia from being pushed too far anterior relative to the femur. It is often torn during twisting or bending of the knee.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knee

Tiger's left knee seems to slide forward towards the target, go down, then up which I believe is influencing his shoulder rotation pattern by causing it to be steep. In the video of Foley and O'Hair the feel being ingrained seems to be one of the shin (tibia) moving back (anterior) of the thigh (femur) and then rotating left to flatten out the shoulder rotation pattern and the eventual paths Brian's quote refers to. As the Wikipedia says, a healthy ACL provides stability to this motion.

 

[lia41985]

Gary Koch just stated that Tiger's new chipping technique utilizes a "closed face to open face motion" then added that this motion was similar to Tiger's new full swing. The "closed to open motion" was what Nicklaus referred to as the "relatively difficult way to play golf."