Here's a Duesy - Sequenced Release on plane?

[Tom Bartlett]

O.K....You are on elbow plane coming into the ball, got it? You are swinging so you are using a sequenced release (left wrist uncocking Then rolling), stay with me here. With the club on elbow plane and the club also in the plane of the left arm, because of the left arm flying wedge...how do you uncock on plane? In other words, the uncocking motion should be on a steeper plane than the elbow plane. Two plane lines???

As far as I can see, the only way to uncock on the same plane you are swinging on is to swing on the left shoulder plane.

 

[golfie]

Think you are correct

IMO, unless the left arm is on-plane, there will always be some rolling as you're uncocking.

Golfie

EDIT. I imagine that the feel of sequenced release is usual for teaching purposes however.

 

[rchang72]

I guess one question is, "Does the sequenced release mean one has to fully uncock before rolling?" Because the cocking/uncocking of the left wrist is governed by the bending/straightening of the right elbow, wouldn't it mean your left wrist wouldn't be fully uncocked until both arms straight? Looking at pictures of most good golfers, there is never a time when the left wrist is fully uncocked and the wrist is not rolled. Perhaps sequenced release just means that you have to begin to uncock before you begin to roll, instead of finishing uncocking before you roll.

 

[tongzilla]

O.K....You are on elbow plane coming into the ball, got it? You are swinging so you are using a sequenced release (left wrist uncocking Then rolling), stay with me here. With the club on elbow plane and the club also in the plane of the left arm, because of the left arm flying wedge...how do you uncock on plane? In other words, the uncocking motion should be on a steeper plane than the elbow plane. Two plane lines???

As far as I can see, the only way to uncock on the same plane you are swinging on is to swing on the left shoulder plane.

To see how this can happen, imagine you have an inclined plane and you are inside this magical plane. At release, with your right forearm on plane and your left arm on a steeper plane (off plane), it is very possible to uncock your left wrist whilst keeping the clubshaft on the same plane without the left arm being on plane. There is only one plane line and that's the plane line the club is tracing. Notice that all the time, your left palm is facing and touching the plane even though your left arm is off the plane! Hard to explain in words...

 

[johngolf33]

O.K....You are on elbow plane coming into the ball, got it? You are swinging so you are using a sequenced release (left wrist uncocking Then rolling), stay with me here. With the club on elbow plane and the club also in the plane of the left arm, because of the left arm flying wedge...how do you uncock on plane? In other words, the uncocking motion should be on a steeper plane than the elbow plane. Two plane lines???

As far as I can see, the only way to uncock on the same plane you are swinging on is to swing on the left shoulder plane.

I think the right forearm flying wedge is on plane but the left arm is above plane as you come into the ball.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

I guess one question is, "Does the sequenced release mean one has to fully uncock before rolling?" Because the cocking/uncocking of the left wrist is governed by the bending/straightening of the right elbow, wouldn't it mean your left wrist wouldn't be fully uncocked until both arms straight? Looking at pictures of most good golfers, there is never a time when the left wrist is fully uncocked and the wrist is not rolled. Perhaps sequenced release just means that you have to begin to uncock before you begin to roll, instead of finishing uncocking before you roll.

I said uncocking not uncocked. uncocked is the in line condition reached at follow through (as you stated correctly). The left wrist should be level at impact. But any rolling while uncocking would be simultaneous release by definition.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

I think the right forearm flying wedge is on plane but the left arm is above plane as you come into the ball.

If you are on elbow as I put forth in my example, the left arm is pointing inside the plane line (steeper plane).

I'm just saying that any uncocking without roll would be on that left arm plane.

So...does that mean that there really isn't a sequenced release?

 

[tongzilla]

I'm just saying that any uncocking without roll would be on that left arm plane.

So...does that mean that there really isn't a sequenced release?

If that's true, how can you explain what happens in the example I gave previously, where one steps into a "real" inclined plane and performs what you have said (on plane sequenced release with left arm off plane)

 

[Vaako]

To see how this can happen, imagine you have an inclined plane and you are inside this magical plane. At release, with your right forearm on plane and your left arm on a steeper plane (off plane), it is very possible to uncock your left wrist whilst keeping the clubshaft on the same plane without the left arm being on plane. There is only one plane line and that's the plane line the club is tracing. Notice that all the time, your left palm is facing and touching the plane even though your left arm is off the plane! Hard to explain in words...

Homer:"... the entire Left Arm, the Clubshaft and back of the Left Hand are ALWAYS positioned against the same flat plane - The plane of the Left Wristcock motion

If the left arm is off plane, how can The plane of the Left Wristcock motion be on plane? I'd like someone to explain this once and for all.

Doing the sequenced release one will drop the clubhead below plane i.e. use the Hogan downswing plane untill acc. 3 releases.


Vaako

*Sorry about playing the quoting game, but I think it is relevant this time.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

Homer:"... the entire Left Arm, the Clubshaft and back of the Left Hand are ALWAYS positioned against the same flat plane - [BOLD]The plane of the Left Wristcock motion[/BOLD].*

If the left arm is off plane, how can The plane of the Left Wristcock motion be on plane? I'd like someone to explain this once and for all.

Doing the sequenced release one will drop the clubhead below plane i.e. use the Hogan downswing plane untill acc. 3 releases.


Vaako

*Sorry about playing the quoting game, but I think it is relevant this time.

Exactly! The only way to have the left wrist uncocking on plane (assuming we are on a plane different than left shoulder) is to be rolling at the same time.

I got on my plane that I have in my garage, and tried it to see what Leo was trying to say. If I am on forearm plane and uncock only, it pushes my hands away from my body until my left arm is on plane.

I'm not saying this will help anyone in any way other than knowing that you can't really sequence release without doing something funny.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

Leo, just look at your avatar. It is perfect. If from that position you just uncock the left wrist without any roll the club comes down between your feet and the ball. It has to because your left wrist is not on plane.

 

[Axel_WIngert]

Hello Tom, it's been a while since we were playing at City Park...

To your question- I think it all depends on how far the left forearm is rotated. If the thumb is still pointing towards the shoulder (little rotation, lots of lag) then you can unckock on plane. Another possibility would be to be at "square/square"= 9 o'clock and have a bent left wrist (even though questionable if it's a good idea to play like this).
The underlying principle for the first procedure seems to be that you have to be on the plane of the left arm- but nobody said anything about it's orientation. A little like the paradoxon that the right shoulder can move downplane when there is axis tilt even though it's rotating perpendicular to the body.

These are just quick thoughts.Please try them on your planeboard an tell me what you think .

Axel

 

[tongzilla]

Leo, just look at your avatar. It is perfect. If from that position you just uncock the left wrist without any roll the club comes down between your feet and the ball. It has to because your left wrist is not on plane.

I got on my plane that I have in my garage, and tried it to see what Leo was trying to say. If I am on forearm plane and uncock only, it pushes my hands away from my body until my left arm is on plane.I'm not saying this will help anyone in any way other than knowing that you can't really sequence release without doing something funny.

So to sum things up...
My left wrist is not on plane. But it's still in the plane of the left arm flying wedge. Obviously, the whole left arm wedge isn't on plane.

Thus the mystery is: how can I uncock my left wrist so that the club is on plane and yet my left arm wedge is off plane?
This can happens because my left wrist or forearm is Turned.

I don't get how your hands get pushed away when you're uncocking only on the plane board. Maybe try doing it with your left arm only?

 

[Vaako]

So to sum things up...
My left wrist is not on plane. But it's still in the plane of the left arm flying wedge. Obviously, the whole left arm wedge isn't on plane.

Thus the mystery is: how can I uncock my left wrist so that the club is on plane and yet my left arm wedge is off plane?
This can happens because my left wrist or forearm is Turned.

...

It is an illusion.

Your wristcocking motion isn't happening on the left arm flying wedge plane. Basic geometry says this.

I'll bet you play with strong slightly cupped left hand grip 10-2-B, yes? Then it is easy to cock/un-cock on plane and (mis)feel this motion taking place on the left arm flying wedge plane - two separete planes.

This must be one of the points were the 1-L machine analogy starts to break down in real wold. Unless one plays w/ zero #3 acc angle.


Vaako

 

[Vaako]

...

I'm not saying this will help anyone in any way other than knowing that you can't really sequence release without doing something funny.

I wouldn't play the value of this down too much.

If one cannot make the down the plane judo-chop sequenced release work, it must be worth something to know the problem is in the explanation/TGM side of the process? Could save someone time spent on banging his/her head against the brick wall - DIY'ers especially.


Vaako

 

[EdZ]

It is an illusion.

Your wristcocking motion isn't happening on the left arm flying wedge plane. Basic geometry says this.

I'll bet you play with strong slightly cupped left hand grip 10-2-B, yes? Then it is easy to cock/un-cock on plane and (mis)feel this motion taking place on the left arm flying wedge plane - two separete planes.

This must be one of the points were the 1-L machine analogy starts to break down in real wold. Unless one plays w/ zero #3 acc angle.


Vaako

This is a key reason for the 'gap' in the left hand grip, such that the left wrist can uncock AGAINST the plane. An important word in Homer's statement.

You are 'hugging' "The" plane - on the backswing, it brushes against the inside of the left arm, post follow-through (both arms straight) the entire power package rotates around what I call the "rotation point" (PP#1) and the inside of the right arm brushes against the plane.

See EdZ Drills and the photo in 10-6-B#2

 

[Vaako]

This is a key reason for the 'gap' in the left hand grip, such that the left wrist can uncock AGAINST the plane. An important word in Homer's statement.

You are 'hugging' "The" plane - on the backswing, it brushes against the inside of the left arm, post follow-through (both arms straight) the entire power package rotates around what I call the "rotation point" (PP#1) and the inside of the right arm brushes against the plane.

See EdZ Drills and the photo in 10-6-B#2

10-6-B #2 is a good reference. Easy to see how clubsaft is on plane while left arm is - what, 10*? - flatter. So, the left arm flying wedge is off plane when the left shoulder is off plane. Even easier to see in 10-6-A #2.

If you start sequenced release from here the clubhead is going to fly where the left arm points - below plane. Coming down before release only makes the results less dramatic.

Also, it is rather evident from A #2 or B #2 that left arm doesn't brush against the plane. It may be close enough for one to feel so, but that's an illusion.


Vaako

 

[EdZ]

10-6-B #2 is a good reference. Easy to see how clubsaft is on plane while left arm is - what, 10*? - flatter. So, the left arm flying wedge is off plane when the left shoulder is off plane. Even easier to see in 10-6-A #2.

If you start sequenced release from here the clubhead is going to fly where the left arm points - below plane. Coming down before release only makes the results less dramatic.

Also, it is rather evident from A #2 or B #2 that left arm doesn't brush against the plane. It may be close enough for one to feel so, but that's an illusion.


Vaako

See 10-13-D as well. Note that you may assume a 'visually flat' left wrist and that there is a difference with an 'anatomically flat' left wrist. That said, grip types are a factor, and as always, it is the pressure points that should be monitored.

The path/plane of the hands, the 'tip of the triangle'. PP#1.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

I'm not sure what the confusion here is. Everyone keeps saying that if the left arm turns while uncocking the left wrist, it (the shaft) stays on plane...that would be simultaneous not sequenced. Left arm flying wedge is in plane with the left arm no matter what grip type, so if you are uncocking it is in the plane of the left arm.

And, when I said this really won't help anyone...I meant just the opposite. Trying to Really do this could screw some people up. But, trying to feel it, might cause a good result. Like for someone who rolls too much before impact.

P.S. Hey Axel! How are you hitting it? And City Park, I'm sure you know, looks like a wheat field now.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

Interesting that no AI's have jumped in to explain this as I know some of them teach people to do this very thing. What say guys?