Here's a Duesy - Sequenced Release on plane?

[Mike O]

2-n-1

O.K....You are on elbow plane coming into the ball, got it? You are swinging so you are using a sequenced release (left wrist uncocking Then rolling), stay with me here. With the club on elbow plane and the club also in the plane of the left arm, because of the left arm flying wedge...how do you uncock on plane? In other words, the uncocking motion should be on a steeper plane than the elbow plane. Two plane lines???

As far as I can see, the only way to uncock on the same plane you are swinging on is to swing on the left shoulder plane.

Tom,
Absolutely correct! The Left wrist does not uncock "on-plane" i.e. on the swing plane unless you're using a left shoulder plane.

And I'm with you on the apparent impossibility of having an on-plane swing with a sequenced release. Homer understood that the left wrist uncocking motion by itself was not an on-plane motion- See 2-N-1-B- It's a downward force/motion- not an on-plane force or motion. But it's offset by an outward force- 2-N-1-A- i.e. shoulder turn- Right Arm thrust. So you can still have a sequenced release- #2 first, then #3- as long as they are not simultaneous, then they are sequenced by definition- how much sequenced depends on the players pattern- see last paragraph in 6-M-1.

Of course, there probably is alot more flushing out to do- but that's a start to explaining the issue. Hope it helps a little- although I think you already had it.

 

[tongzilla]

Good points Mike. So, it is possible to Uncock (only) with your Left Arm Wedge off plane but Clubshaft on plane during the entire Sequenced Release because your Pivot will move in such a way as to make that possible.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Still though...

A VERY DICEY proposition.

I have a better way....

 

[Mike O]

2-n-1

Good points Mike. So, it is possible to Uncock (only) with your Left Arm Wedge off plane but Clubshaft on plane during the entire Sequenced Release because your Pivot will move in such a way as to make that possible.

Yes,
But of course- as you know- we're not procedurally uncocking, or rolling, or uncocking and rolling- these are descriptions of what's happening- and in the Golfing Machine- alot of times it's a result of the method of acceleration that is being employed. Keeping all this "on-plane" or due to plane shifts- better said "to keep this motion directed at the same plane line", it's clubhead lag that really makes it all happen on a procedural basis. Then the simultaneous release is usually the result of pushing/Hitting and the sequenced release is a result of pulling/Swinging. So alot of this information (such as release motions) allows us to look at the movement- do a little detective work and maybe help us find a few clues if something isn't going correctly, but you've got to be really careful regarding taking things that are happening and thinking that you need to make them happen. You're basic procedure is to make an effort to move your hands and club up an angle and down an angle- from there you need to continue to refine the flaws that prevent you from maintaining that clubhead lag to one plane line.

 

[Mike O]

sequenced on plane

Good points Mike. So, it is possible to Uncock (only) with your Left Arm Wedge off plane but Clubshaft on plane during the entire Sequenced Release because your Pivot will move in such a way as to make that possible.

Leo,
Specifically- in a MECHANICAL perspective- NOT a PROCEDURAL perspective,
imagine for swinging that the intitial thrust from the pivot(right shoulder) is on-plane- no release of the power package yet- now once the on-plane pivot thrust slows then the power package starts "separating"- i.e. releasing- and the pivot motion is then "off plane"- more outward and the "uncocking" is more downward- more to it than that of course, anotherwords the left arm motion is also a downward motion- so there are alot of outward motions and alot of downward motions- but hopefully you've got the "glue" that creates the on-plane motion- after all as Homer said that's the SECRET.

 

[tongzilla]

But of course- as you know- we're not procedurally uncocking, or rolling, or uncocking and rolling- these are descriptions of what's happening- and in the Golfing Machine- alot of times it's a result of the method of acceleration that is being employed.

Absolutely! So many things are a result of how you accelerate the club (radially or longitudinally). Wrist Action, Hinge Action, Release Motions, Pivot Motions, etc. Learning how and why these things occur instead of trying to artificially produce it is the key.

 

[tongzilla]

Still though...

A VERY DICEY proposition.

I have a better way....

We are listening...

 

[The Return of NAT]

Wrist Action plays a vital role in the ability to cock/uncock on a selected plane angle ....especiallly during a sequenced release..I believe the original question was how can you uncock on plane ..specifically the elbow plane..Well it is quite obvious...you have either "Swiveled" or Turned the Left Hand Palm to the Plane of the Elbow which is 10-18-A and the right hand palm is palm up due to the right forearm wedge complying with the rotation of the left arm wedge.....or you have used 10-18-C #1 which is using Horizontal Hinging to substitute for Wrist Action with a slightly Pre-Turned Grip(But I doubt that..I'll bet the former)...The bottom line is there is a different degree of rotation for the selected plane angle......I see your point when you cock and uncock in the plane of the left Arm Flying Wedge with it's alignment to the Left Shoulder..But remember this "perpindicular motion" is rotated via the pivot, the orbiting arms, and/or wrist action.....Outside the world of TGM...Search for the perfect Swing would call this phenomena an "in plane roll of the left arm in the backstroke from the shoulder joint..sounds like backstroke hinge action to me....I thoiught Hinge Action was from Impact to Follow-Through..NOT... read the damn yellow book...especially 10-18-C #1,2,3

Checkout Bobby Clampett on the Elbow Plane during the Downstroke...The entire Left arm Flying Wedge is rotated to the Elbow Plane ....




Definitley not on the plane of the Left Shoulder...

The Return of NAT

 

[Brian Manzella]

But...

To Uncock on plane from where Bobby is, he ALSO NEEDS TO PIVOT.

Cuz the "plane of the left arm flying wedge" is pointing right of Rush Limbaugh.

 

[The Return of NAT]

But...

To Uncock on plane from where Bobby is, he ALSO NEEDS TO PIVOT.

Cuz the "plane of the left arm flying wedge" is pointing right of Rush Limbaugh.

Duh...what do you think he's gonna do...just stop his pivot and uncock from there?...

The point is ...that if you are going to uncock the left wrist on the elbow plane the delivery path of the hands has to be on the elbow plane with the left wrist turned to the plane....

And you're right this left arm flying wedge is a little to the right Rush Limbaugh...Just tried to illustrate the left arm flying wedge is not always in the same plane as the left shoulder

 

[Brian Manzella]

The POINT is....

The Real POINT to all of this in the REAL WORLD, is that telling someone to sequence release by TRYING to UNCOCK on "the line" and THEN to ROLL on that line, is VERY DICEY at best.

The better question is "Why would yuou EVER TELL anyone about sequnced release?"

The naswer is a SWINGER who is GETTING the clubface to turn off of the plane too soon, right?

So....is there a better way?

Heck yes.

But, for now, I a'int telling.

 

[Mike O]

Confused

Wrist Action plays a vital role in the ability to cock/uncock on a selected plane angle ....especiallly during a sequenced release..I believe the original question was how can you uncock on plane ..specifically the elbow plane..Well it is quite obvious...you have either "Swiveled" or Turned the Left Hand Palm to the Plane of the Elbow which is 10-18-A and the right hand palm is palm up due to the right forearm wedge complying with the rotation of the left arm wedge.....or you have used 10-18-C #1 which is using Horizontal Hinging to substitute for Wrist Action with a slightly Pre-Turned Grip(But I doubt that..I'll bet the former)...The bottom line is there is a different degree of rotation for the selected plane angle......I see your point when you cock and uncock in the plane of the left Arm Flying Wedge with it's alignment to the Left Shoulder..But remember this "perpindicular motion" is rotated via the pivot, the orbiting arms, and/or wrist action.....Outside the world of TGM...Search for the perfect Swing would call this phenomena an "in plane roll of the left arm in the backstroke from the shoulder joint..sounds like backstroke hinge action to me....I thoiught Hinge Action was from Impact to Follow-Through..NOT... read the damn yellow book...especially 10-18-C #1,2,3

Checkout Bobby Clampett on the Elbow Plane during the Downstroke...The entire Left arm Flying Wedge is rotated to the Elbow Plane ....




Definitley not on the plane of the Left Shoulder...

The Return of NAT

I think I followed everything you said except "Checkout Bobby Clampett on the Elbow Plane during the Downstroke...The entire Left arm Flying Wedge is rotated to the Elbow Plane ...."

Not sure what you meant by "rotated to the Elbow Plane"- both of your posts to me, leave open the possibility that your saying the Left Arm Flying Wedge is on the plane of the elbow plane- yet it's not-

Please clarfiy-

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Vaako]

Almost understanding this...

Ok - to stay on plane during downswing w/ sequenced release one can...

1. Use wrist action, i.e. release acc. #3 to some degree, to roll LFW.

2. Use hinge action to roll whole left arm and LFW w/ it.

X. Use "off-plane" wrist cocking plane.

1. isn't really sequenced, 2. is G.O.L.F. and X is for dorks?


If above is even close, then how do pivot and orbiting hands roll LFW without wrist or hinge action???

EDIT:Above in the context of keeping the club on-plane.

Vaako

 

[Tom Bartlett]

At no time during the swing, before impact is the left arm flying wedge on the clubshaft plane unless you are swinging on the left shoulder plane.

And, I still don't see how you can uncock the left wrist on the plane you are swinging (barring left shoulder plane) as long as the left palm is facing the plane.

 

[Mike O]

Still got it!

At no time during the swing, before impact is the left arm flying wedge on the clubshaft plane unless you are swinging on the left shoulder plane.

And, I still don't see how you can uncock the left wrist on the plane you are swinging (barring left shoulder plane) as long as the left palm is facing the plane.

You still have it Tom! The correct answer that is. Two thoughts- I'd leave out your comment above "as long as the left palm is facing the plane"- because even if it's not "facing" the plane- the left wrist is not going to uncock on the clubshaft plane- just was a little confusing to me- maybe needs clarification in regards to what you meant.

Secondly, I'm thinking when you say "left shoulder plane" you're thinking of a zero #3 accumulator at address- I could be wrong about that - but even with a zero number 3 accumulator- the left arm flying wedge won't stay on plane- nor will the line of the left wristcock stay on the clubshaft plane- except for a few exceptions i.e. the left arm flying wedge would be on plane at address/impact- although any wristcock or uncocking by itself would not be on plane at that point.

 

[Mike O]

close?

Ok - to stay on plane during downswing w/ sequenced release one can...

1. Use wrist action, i.e. release acc. #3 to some degree, to roll LFW.

2. Use hinge action to roll whole left arm and LFW w/ it.

X. Use "off-plane" wrist cocking plane.

1. isn't really sequenced, 2. is G.O.L.F. and X is for dorks?


If above is even close, then how do pivot and orbiting hands roll LFW without wrist or hinge action???

EDIT:Above in the context of keeping the club on-plane.

Vaako

Vaako-
The way you've typed your post- I'd say that, or it would be my guess that you're not close. A number of issues but I'd post to the first one:
When you say:
"to stay on plane during downswing w/ sequenced release one can..." which - whether it's your intention or not- implies that the player should be doing/controlling either 1,2,or X as your procedure- i.e. making it happen-where as Tongzilla posted above- the answer to your question on a procedural level would be "direct lag at the plane line"- that's how you stay on plane with a sequenced release or a simultaneous release. That's the "simple" answer- in practice you or the teacher may need to work on a lot of other issues to make that happen.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

You still have it Tom! The correct answer that is. Two thoughts- I'd leave out your comment above "as long as the left palm is facing the plane"- because even if it's not "facing" the plane- the left wrist is not going to uncock on the clubshaft plane- just was a little confusing to me- maybe needs clarification in regards to what you meant.

My palm to plane comment was that I don't see how you can uncock without rolling to keep it tracing the plane line. I have tried with flashlights and I would have to have something...pivot, right arm straightening or left arm to roll the left palm off the plane to be able to be on plane and the rolling off plane of the left palm would seem to be simultaneous release.

Secondly, I'm thinking when you say "left shoulder plane" you're thinking of a zero #3 accumulator at address- I could be wrong about that - but even with a zero number 3 accumulator- the left arm flying wedge won't stay on plane- nor will the line of the left wristcock stay on the clubshaft plane- except for a few exceptions i.e. the left arm flying wedge would be on plane at address/impact- although any wristcock or uncocking by itself would not be on plane at that point.

No, I meant if you are on the left shoulder plane during the swing when your left palm was on the plane then the left arm flying wedge and wrist cocking or uncocking would also be on plane.

Wouldn't the left arm flying wedge be perpendicular to the plane at address/impact?

And Mike, it is always a pleasure to read your comments. You have had several great posts on this and Lynn's site.

 

[tongzilla]

Remember there is the rolling motion imparted by the pivot, and a true roll imparted by the left wrist/forearm.

 

[Mike O]

post

You still have it Tom! The correct answer that is. Two thoughts- I'd leave out your comment above "as long as the left palm is facing the plane"- because even if it's not "facing" the plane- the left wrist is not going to uncock on the clubshaft plane- just was a little confusing to me- maybe needs clarification in regards to what you meant.

My palm to plane comment was that I don't see how you can uncock without rolling to keep it tracing the plane line. I have tried with flashlights and I would have to have something...pivot, right arm straightening or left arm to roll the left palm off the plane to be able to be on plane and the rolling off plane of the left palm would seem to be simultaneous release.

Secondly, I'm thinking when you say "left shoulder plane" you're thinking of a zero #3 accumulator at address- I could be wrong about that - but even with a zero number 3 accumulator- the left arm flying wedge won't stay on plane- nor will the line of the left wristcock stay on the clubshaft plane- except for a few exceptions i.e. the left arm flying wedge would be on plane at address/impact- although any wristcock or uncocking by itself would not be on plane at that point.

No, I meant if you are on the left shoulder plane during the swing when your left palm was on the plane then the left arm flying wedge and wrist cocking or uncocking would also be on plane.

Wouldn't the left arm flying wedge be perpendicular to the plane at address/impact?

And Mike, it is always a pleasure to read your comments. You have had several great posts on this and Lynn's site.

Got it. You were saying in the second item, that if the left shoulder, left arm, and clubshaft were on the swing plane- i.e. if the left arm flying wedge were on the swing plane - then and only then could you see the left wrist uncock on the swing plane- and you called that condition/location - the left shoulder plane. That is purely uncock on plane without the necessity of having an offsetting outward motion- due to the normal downward i.e. below the swing plane uncocking motion. Thanks for the feedback.

Just for clarification on why it wasn't clear to me before- in TGM- say a right elbow plane would be where the elbow touches the waist. So, following that logic - when you said left shoulder plane- we'd need to say - the left shoulder at address?- or the left shoulder at the top- or some other point where the left shoulder is and have that angle from that point to the ball/plane line define the angle of the plane. However, in any of those situations- the left arm flying wedge still won't be on plane- except where the left shoulder AND the left arm are on plane. So I just didn't have a clear image of what "left shoulder plane" meant. Not a knock on you- I just couldn't visualize it. Sounds like we are in agreement though- and have been regarding this topic of uncocking on plane and what's required.

 

[Mike O]

Left Arm Flying wedge-

You still have it Tom! The correct answer that is. Two thoughts- I'd leave out your comment above "as long as the left palm is facing the plane"- because even if it's not "facing" the plane- the left wrist is not going to uncock on the clubshaft plane- just was a little confusing to me- maybe needs clarification in regards to what you meant.

My palm to plane comment was that I don't see how you can uncock without rolling to keep it tracing the plane line. I have tried with flashlights and I would have to have something...pivot, right arm straightening or left arm to roll the left palm off the plane to be able to be on plane and the rolling off plane of the left palm would seem to be simultaneous release.

Secondly, I'm thinking when you say "left shoulder plane" you're thinking of a zero #3 accumulator at address- I could be wrong about that - but even with a zero number 3 accumulator- the left arm flying wedge won't stay on plane- nor will the line of the left wristcock stay on the clubshaft plane- except for a few exceptions i.e. the left arm flying wedge would be on plane at address/impact- although any wristcock or uncocking by itself would not be on plane at that point.

No, I meant if you are on the left shoulder plane during the swing when your left palm was on the plane then the left arm flying wedge and wrist cocking or uncocking would also be on plane.

Wouldn't the left arm flying wedge be perpendicular to the plane at address/impact?

And Mike, it is always a pleasure to read your comments. You have had several great posts on this and Lynn's site.

Wouldn't the left arm flying wedge be perpendicular to the plane at address/impact?
I just about didn't catch this-
Without looking at all of the hinge actions- and just taking horizontal hinge action - and using a grip with the left wrist vertical to the ground- then I would say the left arm flying wedge would only be perpendicular to the swing plane at low point.