Here's a Duesy - Sequenced Release on plane?

[Mike O]

separate- outward motion from rolling motion

Remember there is the rolling motion imparted by the pivot, and a true roll imparted by the left wrist/forearm.

Leo,
Your quote made me think of something- that it's important we separate outward motion (movement of the clubhead towards the plane line) from rolling motion (closing of the clubface).

The pivot does both- but the primary context/application in regards to this thread would be the outward motion imparted by the pivot - (after start down) would work to offset any downward motion of uncocking- thereby making an on-plane motion. That's the mechanical explanation- obviously as we discussed - NOT- something you have to try to do.

 

[Vaako]

Vaako-
The way you've typed your post- I'd say that, or it would be my guess that you're not close. A number of issues but I'd post to the first one:
When you say:
"to stay on plane during downswing w/ sequenced release one can..." which - whether it's your intention or not- implies that the player should be doing/controlling either 1,2,or X as your procedure- i.e. making it happen-where as Tongzilla posted above- the answer to your question on a procedural level would be "direct lag at the plane line"- that's how you stay on plane with a sequenced release or a simultaneous release. That's the "simple" answer- in practice you or the teacher may need to work on a lot of other issues to make that happen.

Not even close? - damn!

I wasn't really looking for simple answers how to do it, more like mechanical/geometric info on what goes on under the hood. What other issues do you see?


Vaako

 

[Mike O]

Clarification

Ok - to stay on plane during downswing w/ sequenced release one can...

1. Use wrist action, i.e. release acc. #3 to some degree, to roll LFW.

2. Use hinge action to roll whole left arm and LFW w/ it.

X. Use "off-plane" wrist cocking plane.

1. isn't really sequenced, 2. is G.O.L.F. and X is for dorks?


If above is even close, then how do pivot and orbiting hands roll LFW without wrist or hinge action???

EDIT:Above in the context of keeping the club on-plane.

Vaako

Now that I read it over - I see where you're coming from- but still I would clarify:

Hinge motion- is a clubface motion- easiest to limit that terminology to the motion of the clubface during the impact interval.

That said- any clubface motion in TGM is a result of one of three zones-
1) The hands i.e. left forearm rotation- i.e. supination-i.e. swivel
2) The Arms
3) The Pivot- feet, knees, hips, shoulders
So any or all of those- or any combination will or could create a specific clubface motion- hinge action.

So when you said:
"If above is even close, then how do pivot and orbiting hands roll LFW without wrist or hinge action???"

You kind of lost me there- you will always have some kind of hinge action- caused by a combination of the hands, arms, pivot. It's inherent in the Golfing Machine- that there is a "Hinge Action of an Angular Motion on an Inclined Plane"- So you'll always have hinge action in the swing- what hinge action and how it was produced are up to the player. Twist this joint- Twist that joint- freeze this joint - freeze that joint- the options are numerous on what you can do.

Finally I would say when you mentioned "Use Wrist Action" or "Use Hinge Action"- seemed a backwards way to say it to me- the motion, the body, the arms etc- create wrist conditions i.e. turned-rolled- which in turn create Hinge Motions of the Left wrist through impact. When you say "Use Wrist Action" sounds like something you'd be doing with your wrists.

I don't know maybe you've got it correct- tough to discuss via the forum. Like I said, when I re-read your post I saw what you were saying- and all of those things would help keep it on plane- although I personally wouldn't separate out wrist action and hinge action- not sure I see the difference in that context of clubface closing.

Hope something in this helped.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Mike it is a pleasure to read your "NON-BAISED" TGM answers.

 

[Mike O]

Thanks

Mike it is a pleasure to read your "NON-BAISED" TGM answers.

Thanks Brian for the comment. In that light- like I mentioned before- I think you've got a great combination of A) Promoting TGM, B) Using TGM and C) applying it to your students in your own way- with the full flexibility and freedom that the system not only allows but supports. It's not that important to use any specific terms - as long as you understand the nature of their problem and fix it- making them better golfers. So it can actually be easier to understand the problem of the golfer via TGM knowledge and then fix the problem using everyday language. Simple- it takes away the additional factor of "Teaching them a new language"- Not saying the other way doesn't work also- but I would imagine that AI's that teach this way might sense at times that they need to defend their approach- or some might say that they are not "True" TGM Teachers because they don't necessarily use the terminology that much- quite the contrary- keep it up! As I said before, my guess would be that Homer would have loved it!

 

[rundmc]

Leo,
Your quote made me think of something- that it's important we separate outward motion (movement of the clubhead towards the plane line) from rolling motion (closing of the clubface).

The pivot does both- but the primary context/application in regards to this thread would be the outward motion imparted by the pivot - (after start down) would work to offset any downward motion of uncocking- thereby making an on-plane motion. That's the mechanical explanation- obviously as we discussed - NOT- something you have to try to do.

Mike (psych)O . . . . How would you o' sublime master of the hand controlled pivot bring us back to the hand controlled pivot based upon Tong's and your above dialog? Do you think the Sequenced Release as Mr. K wrote in the book . . . uncock THEN roll . . . has different implications on the hand-controlled pivot? 8+1+2+1

 

[Mike O]

Theory

Mike (psych)O . . . . How would you o' sublime master of the hand controlled pivot bring us back to the hand controlled pivot based upon Tong's and your above dialog? Do you think the Sequenced Release as Mr. K wrote in the book . . . uncock THEN roll . . . has different implications on the hand-controlled pivot? 8+1+2+1

Run,
The above is just more of a "mechanical description" of what's happening. So we're chipping away at the bark of the tree- understanding the nature of the bark- not looking at the overall tree or the forest in that discussion.

So since we weren't discussing hand controlled pivot or pivot controlled hands- and since all of this sequence release falls under both hand controlled and pivot controlled and is really unrelated to that larger picture- we don't need to "bring us back to a hand controlled pivot- we were already there- we were just looking under the hood at the pistons, etc. didn't say if it was a BMW or a Mercedes- it applies to both.

"Do you think the Sequenced Release as Mr. K wrote in the book . . . uncock THEN roll . . . has different implications on the hand-controlled pivot? 8+1+2+1"

No, both pivot controlled or hand controlled would be the same.

Not saying there can't be exceptions but the basic- the KEY to the sequenced release is, it is the result of pulling (pulling here is a description of what's happening- not saying it's the procedure!) on the clubshaft and having centrifugal force unleash the power accumulators. When you pull (see comment above) the shaft down, you don't get much roll- then when centrifugal force starts to release the accumulators- the first thing it does or wants to do is to uncock accumulator #2- your wrist- and once it's nearing the end of uncocking- it's next victim is accumulator #3- the roll. Just the nature of the beast! In contrast, if your pushing the primary lever assembly- the entire left arm and clubshaft as a unit- towards impact- then that pushing motion just wants to "eat" both accumulators #2 &#3 at the same time- can't help itself. Just the nature of the beast! Sure you can have some variations - but that's the basic nature of the release motions- they are a result of the acceleration method!!!!!!

Hand controlled pivot is a different thread- different ball game than we're playing here.

 

[Vaako]

...

Hope something in this helped.

A lot - Thanks!


Vaako