Hit DOWN on the Driver...(audio commentary w/pics)

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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Just below is the Audio File link. Use the Pictures to follow along with the commentary.
http://homepage.mac.com/brianmanzella/.Public/theyhitdown.mp3
sluhitsdown.jpg

dthitsdown.jpg
 
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TGManMachine

New
Thank you Brian for taking the time to illustrate how Sluman and Toms apparently hit down on the ball with their drivers. I would have liked to see their driver just at impact to see the body alignments to the ball.

What bothers me about these pics is it seems as if Sluman and Toms are teeing the ball up well behind their left foot, by as much as 3-4 inches. I and most others tee the ball up opposite the left foot, and on the basis of your circle geometry we would get an ascending driver path through impact.

Why do Sluman and Toms tee the ball so far back in their stance? Is it because they want to ensure a descending driver path at impact?

I don't recall anywhere in TGM as to preferred teed ball position for the driver. Should the ball be kept well back to ensure a descending stroke for the driver?

Did the PING launch monitor testing you did provide you with the angle of attack for your descending driver path? How many degrees of negative angle of attack did you register for your optimal drives?

Thanks again for your information regarding club head path and TGM. Your audio messaging is quite excellent, and I wish I could partake of a verbal debate on this topic. Best regards.
 
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TGManMachine

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Well Brian, would you agree that if the videocam was swung around so that the teed ball appeared to be aligned with the instep of the left sole (where it normally should be) that we might see an ascending driver head path for both Sluman and Toms?

Do you have any launch monitor values to verify if in fact both Sluman and Toms have descending angles of attack?

When we talk about differences in angle of attack of 2 or 3 degrees either way, that is not much, but the effect on ball spin rates is quite significant according to my testing.

Again I refer you to your own swing with an iron, where you take a divot and obviously have a descending stroke. Do you tee up your ball in the same point for your driver as you do for your irons, but only elevate the driver swing to hit the teed ball on the same descending path?

I suppose we must consider the position of the feet at address for the various clubs as well as the ball positions to properly determine whether the club heads are descending or ascending.

An interesting discussion/debate if I may say so. Regards.
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Just saw the new pics. Why does Sutton apprear to have the ball teed up closer to his right foot than the left foot? Is it bad camera perspective?

I would doubt the validity of these pics in determining driver angle of attack of only a few degrees, and would think that solid launch monitor data would be best to determine what is actually happening to the driver head through impact.
 
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TGManMachine

New
Yes from the skewed perspective of the camera, the driver heads seem to be going down. Unfortunately such pictures are static snapshots from which the paths must be indirectly determined. The prefered method would be to get direct measurements of the driver heads with a launch monitor to determine the actual angle of attack approaching impact.

Looking at the driver heads in these pics, it would seem that they are rather small so that the pics were taken perhaps 10-15 years ago. All of these pro golfers are now using jumbo 400-460cc drivers optimized on a launch monitor and probably teeing the ball quite high to get an ascending driver path and optimal results.

Perhaps they should be contacted and asked for their launch monitor figures. I have seen some of this data for pro golfers in Golf Digest, so I would assume they would release it if asked.

I would imagine that Toms would share his launch monitor data with you Brian, and that might help resolve the issue.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Maybe it would help YOU if you knew that last May I told David to hit down on the driver a bit.

Launch Montiors, for the most part, give Launch Angles and spin.

They don't measure THE GRIP END or the 'decent'!!!!
 
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TGManMachine

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How did Toms accomplish hitting down more? Did he move the tee back in his stance? What was Tom's angle of attack when you offered him your advice? If he went from a 4 degree positive to a 2 degree positive that could be considered hitting down a bit more.

Some launch monitors do give the angle of attack, but I believe there are also magnetic platforms that register the angle of attack too.

I would think that all tour pro golfers would have been thoroughly measured for optimal launch conditions by the company who they endorse for drivers. Titleist have a very large testing facility and put all their endorsing pros through it to ensure optimal performance.

Again, how does the path of the grip end affect the driver head?

I believe that the left arm and hand are being pulled up by the rotation of the left shoulder prior to impact because the left shoulder must be past horizontal and rising coming into impact. Also approaching impact the left wrist should have achieved a flat position indicating that the left arm and driver has already been stretched out by centrifugal force. Under these conditions, the left arm, hand and driver must be rising for an ascending driver head path into impact.
 
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Vaako

New
quote:Originally posted by TGManMachine

Looking at the driver heads in these pics, it would seem that they are rather small so that the pics were taken perhaps 10-15 years ago. All of these pro golfers are now using jumbo 400-460cc drivers optimized on a launch monitor and probably teeing the ball quite high to get an ascending driver path and optimal results.
Click to expand...

Thing to remember about jumbo drivers is that they are huge compared to 1 woods we had just a few years back. The face height (depth) has gone from numbers like 42.5 mm to 58 mm.

Add to this the fact that current drivers have sweet spots higher up on the face than old ones and you end up in a situation where you must tee the ball very high.

Otherwise you'll end up thinning the ball miserably - or burying the head into mud.

So - high tees with jumbo drivers have exactly nothing to do with the descending vs. ascending impact "debate".


Vaako
 
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TGManMachine

New
I know that I have an ascending driver head path for optimal launch conditions.

How do you know that you have a descending driver head path without launch monitor verification?

As I see it the only way to determine if your driver head is on a descending path, you must have it measured on a launch monitor.
 
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TGManMachine

New
FYI, an article by Tom Wishon on launch angle. I think Wishon is a recognized authority on fitting golf clubs and assessing swing factors.

http://www.mail-archive.com/shoptalk@mail.msen.com/msg04755.html

(URL seems to be faulty so I will repeat the portion on angle of attack. The URL should start at http:// )

quote:Tom Wishon
Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:17:57 -0800

Guys:
When it comes to launch angle as a means to achieve greater carry distance, keep in mind that loft alone is not at all the final indicator of what that launch angle is going to be.  A HUGELY important part of the trajectory and ball flight modeling software that my chief engineer developed for me is the input for the golfer’s angle of attack into the ball.  Angle of attack being the angle the clubhead takes right into the impact moment. 

Those golfers who happen to play the ball back too far or keep the hands in front of the clubhead such that the clubhead is taking a negative or downward angle will always generate a lower launch angle for the same loft head as will the golfers who deliver the clubhead level to impact. 

And the ones who learned how to hit the ball more on the upswing, either by intent or through an early release that causes the clubhead to pass the hands prior to impact will always have a higher launch angle for any given loft than the golfers with the descending blow. 

This is how the long drive competitors are able to max out so well with carry distance with their 5 and 6 degree loft drivers – they know how to tee it high and deliver the head on an upward angle of attack to the ball so they not only get a launch angle that is far greater than the real loft on the head, but with the lower loft they are then able to keep ball velocity up high with it. 

When you see a launch monitor result for launch angle that is less than the real loft of the head you know that this golfer has either a 0 angle of attack or a negative angle of attack, and it is for this golfer that the MUCH higher loft driver is going to be the ticket for more carry distance. 

And conversely if you run into a golfer where you note the launch angle is high, yet they are using a low loft angle driver, then you know that they have to be doing something in the swing that causes the clubhead to reach impact on a positive angle of attack, or hitting the ball on the upswing as most refer to it.  And with this the shaft too plays a big role in determining the final launch angle as well. 
Click to expand...
So it seems that those with a descending driver path need higher face loft clubs, while those with ascending driver paths can use lower lofted drivers. However a descending driver path will result in shorter driving distances due to excessive ball spin rates.
 
rwh

rwh

New
I checked my cSwing program to see where the pros played the ball relative to Low Point. I divided them into three categories – Back, At and Forward – without regard to how much back or forward. Some players only had a half ball off of Low Point while others had it three or four inches. Almost all of the cSwing sequences were taken in 2003.

It appears that David Toms was experimenting with playing the ball forward of Low Point at the time that cSwing videoed his swing in 2003.

Back of Low Point</u>

Andy Miller
Cameron Doan
Dean Wilson
Harrison Frazar
John Lanham
Mike Weir
Murray Van Gundy
Rich Beem
Todd Fields
Travis Johns

At Low Point</u>

Bob Burns
Chad Campbell
Grant Waite
J.P. Hayes
Jennifer Yockey
Kirk Triplett
Kristi Albers
Paul Stankowski
Steve Allan

Forward of Low Point</u>

David Toms
Ian Leggatt
James McLean
Scott Verplank
Todd Fischer
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

New
Sure you will launch it lower...but I think the point is that you will launch it straighter with not much distance loss (hitting down on it). This is why these guys are using higher loft drivers now- Vijay and Kuehne are two of the longest guys on tour and they use 10.5 degree drivers so they can hit down and the ball will still get up in the air. They don't use those drivers because they can't hit it high...they aren't hacks and have very high swingspeeds (high spin/potential for high launch)...they can prolly use 6 degree drivers if they wanted to...

This has been gone over lots man...sure some people hit up and some people hit down- you can likely find examples of both...but hitting down is more accepted for being consistent with accuracy- just like TGM advocates having a flat left wrist and sustaining it past the ball.

Obviously it is easier to maintain that if you hit the ball on a slightly descending angle.

Do you agree with having a flat left wrist?
 
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TGManMachine

New
rwh

Thanks for that information. What is the cSwing program? If it is a video tracking program, I would think that exact launch monitor data would be more conclusive as to angle of attack.

Another launch monitor efficiency value known as Smash Factor (ratio of initial ball velocity to the club head velocity) should be different for the 3 groupings you list. Since hitting down creates more ball backspin, the Smash Factor would be lower for the Back of Low Point group and higher for the other groups.

Do you have any hard data from launch monitor testing for any of these pro golfers. Thanks for your information.

Regarding David Toms, I understand he is now working with Rob Akins for his swing mechanics.

http://www.golfdigest.com/instruction/index.ssf?/instruction/gd200406futureswing.html

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Birdie man

I understand that Vigay uses a higher lofted driver and fairway clubs because they are also built with very open face angles to accomodate his high swing speeds. In this way the club face squares up at impact.

If you are swinging properly, you will have a flat left wrist through impact because the centrifugal force created through the left arm will stretch and straighten the left arm-club assembly.

It seems as if we are debating about small differences in angle of attack which may not be measureable by eyeballing, only with direct launch monitor testing. The difference will show up in Smash Factor values for each type of impact style.
 
rwh

rwh

New
quote:Originally posted by TGManMachine

rwh

Thanks for that information. What is the cSwing program? If it is a video tracking program, I would think that exact launch monitor data would be more conclusive as to angle of attack.

Another launch monitor efficiency value known as Smash Factor (ratio of initial ball velocity to the club head velocity) should be different for the 3 groupings you list. Since hitting down creates more ball backspin, the Smash Factor would be lower for the Back of Low Point group and higher for the other groups.

Do you have any hard data from launch monitor testing for any of these pro golfers. Thanks for your information. . . . .
Click to expand...


The cSwing program is a basic video analysis tool. There isn't any other data provided.
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
that whole article is pure TGM

flat left wrist
the idea of a heavy lagging clubhead
right shoulder traveling directly downplane
axis tilt to the above
using the ground as leverage

etc
etc

Is he an AI or did David Toms just show him what Brian showed David? ;)
 
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