Hit DOWN on the Driver...(audio commentary w/pics)

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birdie_man

birdie_man

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Cool article...looks like a twist-away hand position at the top...

I don't know about those parallel lines...they don't say much to me...he's not really that close to them in some of the pics.
 
M

matt

New
quote:YOUR SHAFT MUST POINT OUTSIDE THE BALL: One thing I discovered in creating this swing was that, contrary to what most teachers think, the butt end of the golf club should point outside the ball sometime during the downswing
Click to expand...

Hmmm.
 
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TGManMachine

New
Well I was not on this forum last year so I don't want to get into any "mud fight". What we must understand is that Kelley ingeniously catalogued the golf swing in TGM so that a universal language and definitions could be agreed upon. That is not to say that TGM must stay mired in the past based on old knowledge. There is no law that says TGM is the absolute truth and must not be reviewed and revised for current knowledge about the golf swing.

I think that TGM must grow and help define the changing golf swing mechanics that is evolving from the pros and even how it is being taught. Anybody who refuses to admit that TGM is due for a revision, has his head stuck in the mud. There, I threw some mud, but I think I am right.

Now we know that it is natural to have an ascending, descending or level driver head path through impact. TGM says that the driver head must only be descending as with the irons. Now how can this be resolved without throwing more mud.

Now who is in a position to revise TGM?
 
mgjordan

mgjordan

New
In order to be on plane, you MUST hit down until you reach low point. MUST, MUST, MUST, MUST, MUST. There is no way around it. There are geometrical laws that say this. LAWS, not opinions.
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

New
Just read about it in other posts man...I say if you can come up with something new to say then do it. But man has this topic been looked at thoroughly.

The quesion is not whether or not you can hit on on the driver...go ahead if you want I guess...but that might not be the best choice really. If it works for you then awesome man.
 
Erik_K

Erik_K

New
What's the name of the thing CBS uses (shot vision or something)? It shows in slow motion of the driver head moving DOWN to the ball. I thought we've been over this before.
 
M

matt

New
SwingVision. I saw it on Mickelson the other weekend and his driver went down a good inch or two after impact and almost brushed the ground.
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Mickelson is a bad example because he has a much more downward attack...however in other swing vision examples i've seen the driver is still going down just not as much...it is MUCH more prevelant with fairway woods though
 
F

fmlutz

New
Here is another pic of a long driver. Looks like he is going down to impact too.

http://www.golftipsmag.com/content/2004/may/power.html

Mike
 
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TGManMachine

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I think we can all agree that not everybody hits up on the ball, and some hit down or on the level. What seems to be missing in all this discussion is the fact that we don't really have conclusive evidence what is actually happening through impact. The only way we know what our driver head path is, is through launch monitor data. Even the geometry is not conclusive because it is too compromised by skewed camera angles and not to mention inadequate stop action pics. It just seems that we are all guessing.

Some seem to think that because the hands are past the ball the driver head must be descending. It may be so, but that is not conclusive because the left shoulder is also rising which pulls the left hand up. So what action takes precedence. I don't know.

This is why I am questioning the currency of TGM on this one issue of driver head path. We now have launch monitors and cSwing that indicates that the driver path is not the same for all golfers. Also launch monitor characteristics indicate that an ascending driver path produces longer drives. A descending driver path required higher lofted drivers which is mostly used in slow speed swings.

Since the specific geometry of the entire golf swing is not presented in TGM, I think in light of new information on the golf swing that TGM must be re-evaluated and possibly revised to include current reality. I think that Kelley would have undoubtedly done this to ensure that TGM was up to date. I think that only a small portion of TGM need be revised and I think that Kelley would approve because he would probably have done it too.

I would like to see the geometry of the entire golf swing at impact and not only the ball and clubhead geometry. That would go a long way in settling this open issue.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
"...because the left shoulder is also rising which pulls the left hand up...I don't know."

That's RIGHT!!

You don't.

The left shoulder going up MAKES THE CLUBHEAD GO DOWN!!!!!!!

Yikes....how many times????
 
mgjordan

mgjordan

New
TGManMachine,
The left shoulder going up MAKES THE RIGHT SHOULDER GO DOWN. The right shoulder going down causes the hands to go down. The hands going down causes the club to go down. Here is the bottom line...if the ball is positioned back of low point, you HAVE TO go downward to be on plane...that's it, 'plane' and simple.
 
I

Iowagolfpr

New
A couple of years ago I met a long drive competitor. He was the leading money winner on the Long Drivers of America Tour. After I met him, he finish second in the ReMax World Long Driving Championship with a drive of 396 yards. We became friends and we started to help each other with our swings. I got to met and visit with a lot of long driver on the LDA Tour. I tried to argue with the long drivers about hitting up on the ball. I thought you should hit slightly down on drives. I never found one long driver that agreed with me. Everyone gave me lots of reasons and hard evidence that hitting up is better for long drives. Sam Snead said that no one has a swing that is suited for iron play and driving. Golfers swings favor one or the other. Some tour players set up with a little more spine title with the driver. They call that move "tucking under." That move helps their "iron swing" become a better "driver swing." If a golfer hits slight down on a driver, they can use a "iron swing" motion. But, their distance will suffer. These long drivers really study what the do. They try different methods. They study the golf swing and they learn from the club and shaft manufacters. They tee the ball very high. Even when driving into the wind. After playing with many long drivers, I decided to try to tee the ball higher and to hit slightly up on the ball. My driving really improved. You can keep a flat left wrist and hit up on the ball. Last fall I attended a long driving demonstration given by a two time world long driving champion. Watching that demonstration were two A.I.s. I asked the long driver if the average golfer tees the ball too low? His answer was yes. I asked him if he hit up on the ball. His answer was yes. Look at this site. It is PDF so you have to open it up to see all the pages. http://www.golftipsmag.com/content/2004/may/positionsofpower.pdf
If you look on page two of this site, you will see that Brain Pavlet has teed the ball high and he has left the tee in the ground after he contacted the ball. You can't hit down and leave the tee in the ground. Next, on that same page look how Vince Ciurlini tees the ball very high. Look how he set up to the ball. (Remember, he only hits long drives. He is not setting up to hit iron shots!) After looking at Vince's set up, tell me these guys hit down on the ball! Hitting down cause excess spin. Excess spin stops golf balls. Pure science! People used to strongly believe that the world was flat. Science doesn't lie.
 
V

Vaako

New
quote:Originally posted by Iowagolfpr


A couple of years ago I met a long drive competitor. He was the leading money winner on the Long Drivers of America Tour. After I met him, he finish second in the ReMax World Long Driving Championship with a drive of 396 yards. We became friends and we started to help each other with our swings. I got to met and visit with a lot of long driver on the LDA Tour. I tried to argue with the long drivers about hitting up on the ball. I thought you should hit slightly down on drives. I never found one long driver that agreed with me. Everyone gave me lots of reasons and hard evidence that hitting up is better for long drives. Sam Snead said that no one has a swing that is suited for iron play and driving. Golfers swings favor one or the other. Some tour players set up with a little more spine title with the driver. They call that move "tucking under." That move helps their "iron swing" become a better "driver swing." If a golfer hits slight down on a driver, they can use a "iron swing" motion. But, their distance will suffer. These long drivers really study what the do. They try different methods. They study the golf swing and they learn from the club and shaft manufacters. They tee the ball very high. Even when driving into the wind. After playing with many long drivers, I decided to try to tee the ball higher and to hit slightly up on the ball. My driving really improved. You can keep a flat left wrist and hit up on the ball. Last fall I attended a long driving demonstration given by a two time world long driving champion. Watching that demonstration were two A.I.s. I asked the long driver if the average golfer tees the ball too low? His answer was yes. I asked him if he hit up on the ball. His answer was yes. Look at this site. It is PDF so you have to open it up to see all the pages. http://www.golftipsmag.com/content/2004/may/positionsofpower.pdf
If you look on page two of this site, you will see that Brain Pavlet has teed the ball high and he has left the tee in the ground after he contacted the ball. You can't hit down and leave the tee in the ground. Next, on that same page look how Vince Ciurlini tees the ball very high. Look how he set up to the ball. (Remember, he only hits long drives. He is not setting up to hit iron shots!) After looking at Vince's set up, tell me these guys hit down on the ball! Hitting down cause excess spin. Excess spin stops golf balls. Pure science! People used to strongly believe that the world was flat. Science doesn't lie.
Click to expand...

And we all note the difference in information content between Iowagolfpr and TGManMachine?

The article refrenced is right on the money for this "discussion". In relevant pictures everybody can see that the left shoulders are behind the ball - by generous amounts, so camera parallax won't even matter - for ascending impacts. As it should be! These guys are top level Long Drivers. And Homer's geometry is preserved.

Nobody disagrees with what Iowagolfpr wrote, that's not the point. And the point really isn't better vs. longer.

The point is that TGManMachine is just - in his slightly lame way - trying to say Homer didn't get the geometry right. That TGM is scientifically flawed.

The only vector of attack available to him is to deny all the photographic and geometric evidence in support of Homer - and demand launch angle monitor data as only acceptable scientific proof. And when somebody posts it, he'll find something other to moan about.


Personally I find this Second Coming a wee bit disappointing.


Vaako
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Can you hit up? YES
Can you hit down? YES

Will hitting up hit it longer all things being equal? YES
Will hitting down be a little shorter, yet MORE CONSISTENT all things being equal? YES

That pretty much sums it up
 
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