Hit DOWN on the Driver...(audio commentary w/pics)

[BigBadDonkey]

TGMan,
I remember listening to some of these so called experts telling everyone they should hit 'up' on a Driver. It totally ruined my swing.
Do you try teach people to hit up on a Driver?
Like I said (no dodging).... Just watch the slow mo cams of many shots of the pros at their Golf tournaments (e.g pros playing in the flesh amongst the muck and bullets, where it matters) and you will see what really happens.

 

[TGManMachine]

Looking at static snapshots or eyeballing the TV is not a geometrically reliable method of determining the angle of attack of drivers. The bottom of the swing event is rather short, about one millisecond from release to immediate follow through. I doubt that anybody can make any subjective conclusions about angle of attack in such short time periods.

Again, the only scientifically valid solution to angle of attack is through launch monitor measurements and stroboscopic pics of the entire golf swing with the driver for geometric analysis. Nobody here has provided any reliable analysis as to driver optimal angles of attack.

Why is TGM not revised to reflect new technology? Kelley said that TGM is based on science, and as we know, old science is not gospel because new and better science provides better information about the golf swing. I'm sure that Kelley would have revised TGM if he had access to new technology because he respected science.

Science is dynamic and always reveals new truths.

 

[BigBadDonkey]

quote:Originally posted by TGManMachine

Looking at static snapshots or eyeballing the TV is not a geometrically reliable method of determining the angle of attack of drivers. The bottom of the swing event is rather short, about one millisecond from release to immediate follow through. I doubt that anybody can make any subjective conclusions about angle of attack in such short time periods.

Wrong, you can see 'clearly' with those slow mo close ups how the driver head is moving in *relation to the ground and ball*.
The whole swing sequence with one of these cams would take minutes, think many Frames per second....
The part where they show impact lasts about 20 seconds (1-2 inch club movement), certainly not one milliscond as you put it. (it's slowed down, not real speed ).
TGmanmacine your argument is crumbling.
BTW, just to get one thing clear, none of my posts on this thread have been TGM related.

 

[TGManMachine]

BDDonkey

I think that Iowagolfpr may disagree with your assessments as per his post on the other forum on this same issue. Fyi:

quote:Originally posted by Iowagolfpr

quote:Originally posted by jim_0068

it'll never end....i can hear it now:

Bah, that camera angle is distorting it, his stance is closed so it makes it look like the ball is back in his stance.

It just won't end

In an earlier thread Brain mentioned that camera angles can distort what a picture shows. He noted that he and Mikestloc have done on lot of work in that regard. Brain mentioned that he was going to post some photos showing the effect of parallax. According to Brain a bad camera angle can produce an incorrect conclusion. Give me a bad camera angle and the ability to draw lines incorrectly and I can show that the world is flat! These long drivers are very dedicated. They work day in and day out on hitting the ball as well as they can. They try every ball position and every angle of attack. They have the resources of the the shaft and clubhead companies. They have the best equipement for their swings. Many of them have 10 or more drivers at any given event. Many use a different driver and shaft during the event depending on the wind conditions and the firmness of the ground. They know and understand equipement. They tee the ball well forward and hit up on the ball. I go to the long driving events and I practice on the range and play with the long drivers. Tom Wishon is a highly respected club maker and advisor to the PGA of America. He advocates a positive angle of the attack with the driver. Two time World Long Drive Champion Sean Fister told me in front of two AI's that he tees the ball high and hits up on the ball. I used to tee the ball down and have it further back in my stance. Three long drivers (two of them former World Champions) were nice enough to take me to the range. We hit balls together. They showed me what happens when you hit down compared to hitting slight up. I tried teeing the ball higher. My driving improved greatly. I drive the ball much better. Period. David Mobley doesn't hit down on drives. I have stood five feet from him when he was on the range. He doesn't play the ball back in his stance like the camera angle incorrectly shows on the pictures that Brain posted. I have visited with him about the golf swing. These long drivers are great guys and the are true professionals who love to win. Many of the are good golfers. David is one of the best golfers of the long drive tour members and he has played on mini tours. Many of the other long drivers are good golfers. They take what they do seriously and they study shafts, clubheads, launch angles, spin rates, ball positions and angle of attacks. If hitting down on the ball helped them they would do it. Heck they would stand on their heads to hit it 5 yards longer. Lynn Blake (G.S.E.D.) correctly stated that you can hit down on drives, level, or up on drives. Any of the three are ok by me. If you hit down with a driver, you can use a very similar motion with the driver and the irons. However, you will lose distance. Long drivers on the Long Drivers Tour do not hit down on with their drivers.

 

[BigBadDonkey]

Lol .. clutch at straws post or your attempting leg pulling again.
Just to make it clear, all my views on this thread are relative to the game of 'Golf'. Just in case we're talking different sports here thought I'd clear that up!
I don't know of other camera angles mentioned and movementplane of the club relative to them but there is never going to be enough distortion with the 'close up cam slow mo's' I am referring to, obviously. You can see the clubhead's movement relative to the ground, and the ball teed upon it, and then the movement of the ball off the clubhead (according to that camera).
It's crystal clear.
For what it's worth, I went to the range today and watched most golfers try and find the tallest Tee available and attempt this death move of 'hitting up with the driver' , result being total throw away, loss of balance, reverse pivot, odd ball positions etc. etc... total failure -- Pop golf instructors would do better teaching other things than this junk.
Good luck with your 'upswinging' .

 

[revert]

Regradless of whether the ball is struck on the upswing or downsing it's immaterial really to me. I think where the problem lies is most golfers are taught to hit down on their irons and up with the driver..huh? What a bunch of crap that is. Why not teach every shot is hit down on. Ball position should be the factor then whether the ball is hit on the down, level or upswing. Personally i think being taught to hit a driver slightly before low point makes much more sense than after. Maybe golfers could then be taught consistently.

 

[TGManMachine]

BDDonkey & revert

Don't let this vigorous discussion/debate stop you from doing your own thing. If you prefer to hit down with your driver by all means do so. To better contribute to this discussion, perhaps you could determine the descending angle of attack you actually apply through launch monitor testing, and then share your driver launch data with us. I would be very interested to know how many degrees of negative angle of attack you actually achieve. Thanks.

 

[revert]

Launch monitors doesn't really come into my reply. I'm saying in actual fact if the ball is trully hit on the down or the up, teaching golfers to hit up sucks in my opinion. "Every swing is the same from wedge to driver but oh yeah, don't hit down on the ball with the driver, hit up". Seen lots of players struggle with topped drives. It's one of these general things that is commonly taught for the masses rather than hit down and get too steep, just teach them to hit up. Good fix.

Another point, if impact is just before low point and seperation is just after, are you hitting down or up and what would your launch monitor tell you?

 

[TGManMachine]

quote:Originally posted by revert

Launch monitors doesn't really come into my reply.

Another point, if impact is just before low point and seperation is just after, are you hitting down or up and what would your launch monitor tell you?

I gather that you hit down on the teed up ball with your driver. Can you share with us what is your driver loft? Also could you tell us where you place the teed ball in your stance and what height tee do you use? I just want to learn what you do to hit down on the ball with your driver.

As for what the launch monitor would tell you if you were able to impact the ball before the low point and carry it on your driver face to the point where it is after the low point --- well I don't think that is possible to do given the brief period of time and distance in which impact occurs.

 

[revert]

Drier loft is 9 degrees, played opposite front heel, 2 3/4 inch tee. Pretty standard stuff. Do i hit down on the driver? I don't know. That's the feeling i have. Trying to hit up on a driver makes no sense to me and causes me issues. I play my driver no different to my 5 iron other than a little farther forward. Would you recommend hitting up on a 5 iron with your ball teed up on a par 3? Why should a driver be different?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

quote:Originally posted by revert



Another point, if impact is just before low point and seperation is just after, are you hitting down or up and what would your launch monitor tell you?

WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is why i stay out of these debates for that very reason because there is no launch monitor that i know of, whether it be one you can buy or the ones that Titleist and Taylormade developed on their own that can measure the angle of attack BEFORE impact, AT impat, DURING compression, AND AFTER separation.

This is why its a moot point.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Thanks JIM....

There is a machine on the market that measures grip lean at impact though....

 

[TGManMachine]

quote:Originally posted by jim_0068

WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is why i stay out of these debates for that very reason because there is no launch monitor that i know of, whether it be one you can buy or the ones that Titleist and Taylormade developed on their own that can measure the angle of attack BEFORE impact, AT impat, DURING compression, AND AFTER separation.

This is why its a moot point.

Callaway Golf Performance Centers measure the Angle of Attack, and they are considered the Gold Standard for consumer club fitting.

If moot ignorance is a winner, then how can you claim a descending driver path is best when launch monitor data suggests otherwise? If you don't know what you are doing with your driver, how can you claim you are optimal?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Ha!!!!!

Hahahahahahahahahah!

Have I got a story for you....

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

quote:Originally posted by TGManMachine

quote:Originally posted by jim_0068

WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is why i stay out of these debates for that very reason because there is no launch monitor that i know of, whether it be one you can buy or the ones that Titleist and Taylormade developed on their own that can measure the angle of attack BEFORE impact, AT impat, DURING compression, AND AFTER separation.

This is why its a moot point.

Callaway Golf Performance Centers measure the Angle of Attack, and they are considered the Gold Standard for consumer club fitting.

If moot ignorance is a winner, then how can you claim a descending driver path is best when launch monitor data suggests otherwise? If you don't know what you are doing with your driver, how can you claim you are optimal?

I'm not claiming anything, all i'm saying is that until we can accurate know how descending/ascending the clubhead is during prior to, at, and after impact its all moot because the the monitor is only going to pick up the clubhead.

So i may be in fact "hitting down" but the monitor doesn't pick that up, it picks up the clubhead AFTER SEPARATION which is ON the way "up" and all of sudden the monitor says i'm hitting up.

 

[TGManMachine]

quote:Originally posted by jim_0068
I'm not claiming anything, all i'm saying is that until we can accurate know how descending/ascending the clubhead is during prior to, at, and after impact its all moot because the the monitor is only going to pick up the clubhead.

So i may be in fact "hitting down" but the monitor doesn't pick that up, it picks up the clubhead AFTER SEPARATION which is ON the way "up" and all of sudden the monitor says i'm hitting up.

jim -- If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that you may have a descending path at initial impact, but after separation you may have an ascending path. If this is what you mean to say, then I don't think that is a reality because the impact event only occurs over about a 3/4 inch and 1/2 millisecond. I don't think that the driver head path can bottom out and reverse over 3/4 inch between initial impact and separation.

 

[Brian Manzella]

It CAN "Bottom out" though....

 

[TGManMachine]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

It CAN "Bottom out" though....

Yes it can bottom out, but this will occur over 3 - 4 feet of swing arc because the circle is large due to the long swing radius. To put things into perspective, we are probably talking about only a 3* - 5* tangent change from negative to positive attack angles. That is you may come in at -5*, level out and leave at +5* over the extremes of the swept arc. In practice the attack angle differences for a driver swing is probably much less.

As I have stated before, a negative attack angle is not wrong per se, but neither is it optimal for distance according to launch monitor testing results. What I object to is the proclamation that a negative attack angle is best for driver swings, when factually this is not completely correct. I also take issue with Kelley's assertion that a negative driver attack angle is necessary for drivers based on circle geometry.

The fact is that the driver path is slightly flattened out at the bottom of the swing enough to alter the relationship of the club face moving on an inclined plane to allow a square face impact with the ball while the driver head is rising to the ball. Remember that we are only talking about a few degrees of swept arc difference between a descending and ascending driver head.

The only way Kelley could validate his left arm swing radius is to assume that the swing center was in the left shoulder and thus create what he thought was pure circle geometry for his concepts. In fact, the swing center changes throughout the downswing because initially the left arm is rotating down and around the left shoulder joint while the torso is rotating around the spinal axis. However when the arms have rotated down and approaching impact, they cease to rotate around the shoulder joints and become connected to the torso which carries them around in unison. The right arm unflexes at the elbow joint, but even this movement is almost completed as you approach impact. In fact this is the physics of the exchange of angular momentum in the kinetic chain of the golf swing.

Through impact, the rotation center is in the upper torso between the shoulders and the swing radius is drawn from this point directly to the club sweet spot. These are the geometric elements of the swinging club head around the one swing center when approaching impact.

 

[Brian Manzella]

No matter what anyone says about this,

This is a fact:

With a FLAT LEFT WRIST -The left shoulder is the bottom of the swing 'arc.'

Next subject please.

 

[TGManMachine]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

No matter what anyone says about this,

This is a fact:

With a FLAT LEFT WRIST -The left shoulder is the bottom [center?] of the swing 'arc.'

Next subject please.

With a FLAT LEFT WRIST the club grip end cannot be leaning forward. unless the left wrist is still arched because the hands are driven deep into the swing before full release.

Then again if the left wrist is flat and the shaft is leaning forward too, then the left shoulder must be shifting laterally along with the head so that it is well ahead of the ball at impact.

Seems like you can't have a flat left wrist and forward leaning shaft at the same time, or can you?