Hit DOWN on the Driver...(audio commentary w/pics)

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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Nope.

If the left wrist is flat, the swing bottom is opposite the left shoulder or 'where the arm hangs, the club/arm unit is at its lowest point.'

Obviously.

But, of course, my left wrist can be flat and the club STILL be on the downswing NOWHERE NEAR low point.

On the way down....with forward leaning shaft after it reaches the 'level' to the ground position prior to impact.

So, friends, if the ball is struck with a flat left wrist, AT ANY TIME BEFORE low point...

You'll have a forward leaning shaft, a DOWNWARD-OUTWARD-and FORWARD impact and NO arched wrist.

Oh....I forgot, unless you have a shaft that kicks forward, then even though YOU THE GOLFER are HITTING DOWN with ALL YOUR MIGHT...the silly little clubhead is moving up a degree or two.
 
Brian, I'm new to your forum, but definitely not new to this arguement, TGM, or online forums. I wanted to pot some things from another forum (I wrote them). I want to be VERY clear. I'm not saying you CAN'T hit down with the driver, I'm saying it's more effecient (in terms of physics) to hit up (and not up like you're trying to send the ball into the clouds, but up as in 3-4*)

QUOTED from GolfDigest's article on Hank Kuehne:

At impact with a test club, Hank's swing speed is 127 mph with a 2.8 degree upward path. His clubhead loft is 7.4 degrees at impact, because of forward shaft lean. The upshot: a launch angle of 10.4 degrees and ballspeed of 183 mph. (endquote)

The other interesting thing you see here is that forward shaft lean and a downward blow are NOT the same thing. As TMs equipment shows, he has the club leaning forward, and is hitting up.

http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/84599 In that picture hank MUST be hitting up on the ball, or he's just but a 130mph skymark in it.

Jack Nicklaus says: "What you want in a driver swing is minimum backspin with maximum forward impetus."
how do we acheive minimum backspin (which WILL give you the highest forward impetus, all else equal)? Simply put, by hitting the ball as (and I hate to use this term, because it isn't exactly a word) non-obliquely as possible.

What is an oblique hit? This is how sidespin is imparted. comming from the outside, with an open face (aka bananna slice) is a classic example of an oblique hit. the club is travelling in a far different path than the clubface orientation. In terms of physics, this is NO different than swinging down with a lofted club (in one, the club is tarvelling left, with the face pointing right, the other has the club travelling down, with the face pointed up).

The way to minimize sidespin is to have the face of the club perpendicular to the path of the club. In like manner, the way to minimize backspin is to hit the ball with the path of the club as closely resempling the launch angle of the ball as possible.

why is hitting up better? is vector physics (math) really. without getting into the hard math: if you're swinging downward, that's the way the force will be directed onto the ball, so the ball would go into the ground with a 0* club. The loft of the club however creates a situation where the blow is delivered obliquely to the direction of force (a blow delivered obliquely to the line of travell is what causes ALL types of spin - even TGM says this), so what you have is the force being directed downwards, deflected obliquely, causing lift, and spin amplified.

why is this inefficient? because if you add two vectors at a right angle, the product of the two will be less than the sum of the parts, because they are added angle. Think of a stair case...12 inches in, then 12 inches up, but the vector sum of the two (or the distance from one stair to the other) is just short of 17 inches...a loss on 7 inches. I hope that makes some sense...it's tough to explain vectors without being able to draw. Now the conditions are actually worse when you hit down on the ball, because it's added at an accute (less than 90*) angle, meaning that one vector FIGHTS another...you hit down, but the lift wants it to go up. so taking the stair analogy, the distance between the two corners (or the vector sum) with a 60* angle would be 12"...a loss of 50% of the force -- this is far more extreme than what could ever happen in a driver swing, but you get the point.

Now imagine the two vectors were added at an obtuse (greater than 90*) angle. the two vectors would assist each other, until they are added at 180* (a straight line). 180* or anything close to it really isn't possible, so let's forget about that...but at 180*, the two would add to 24"...a 0% loss of power. By getting closer to that number, you will launch the ball more efficiently.

There is one thing different about golfballs though -- they are designed to create a partial vacuum and add lift with backspin...so backspin is necessary (and why you wouldn't want to have that 180* case come true), because it keeps the ball in flight longer. creating extra spin kills the ball by creating too much lift though.

I hope that clears up any confusion that's been generated about this topic.
 
No wonder he changed his swing and he still hits it all over the place.
You sure can hit up on a Driver .. but make sure you like trees, long grass, swimming, sand castles, alignment problems, inconsistency, bad back.........
 
quote:Originally posted by BigBadDonkey

No wonder he changed his swing and he still hits it all over the place.
You sure can hit up on a Driver .. but make sure you like trees, long grass, swimming, sand castles, alignment problems, inconsistency, bad back.........
I'd dare anyone to try to consistently keep the ball in the fairway swinging over 130mph. remember, speed enhances spin, the ball winds up more offline. He normally hits about 50% of his fairways, which is about one fairway a round less than Tiger this year.

I used Hank because he outdrove Phil Mickelson with less clubhead speed on both holes in that Battle at the Bridges thing last year. Phil hits down, Hank hits up. that's why it happened.
 
I use a high lofted driver. I swing very comfortably at 105 mph, usually.
If my drives are relatively straight, but consistently too low in trajectory, what could I be doing wrong?

Could I be hitting too down on it? I've tried many drivers.
 
I think the talk of Hank Keuhne is taking away from the focus of Stumper's first post.
Can anybody talk about why it would be incorrect? I think it makes sense.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Here ya go:

You hit down becuse there is MORE FORCE going on the ball from the top, once theclub is going up (THE GRIP END) the club as a unit is into CENTRIF. DECEL.

But I have said this all, a million times, so here is the final word on it from me.

I will continue you teach DOWN PLANE driver impact.

Anyone else can (please do) teach hitting up.

I will out teach you.

That's all I really want to do...out teach every other human.

Tiger wants to beat every human AT GOLF, and Manzella wants to beat every human at teaching.

& I'll do it DOWN PLANE.
 
quote:Originally posted by Playa_Brian

I think the talk of Hank Keuhne is taking away from the focus of Stumper's first post.
Can anybody talk about why it would be incorrect? I think it makes sense.
In terms of physics, there is little arguement. Ever see Barry Bonds hit down on a pitch to send the ball into the cove? Me neither.

quote: Here ya go:

You hit down becuse there is MORE FORCE going on the ball from the top, once theclub is going up (THE GRIP END) the club as a unit is into CENTRIF. DECEL.

But I have said this all, a million times, so here is the final word on it from me.

I will continue you teach DOWN PLANE driver impact.

Anyone else can (please do) teach hitting up.

I will out teach you.

That's all I really want to do...out teach every other human.

Tiger wants to beat every human AT GOLF, and Manzella wants to beat every human at teaching.

& I'll do it DOWN PLANE.
Brian, we agree on one thing: we both know we're right :)

I would suggest that having the left shoulder 4 inches or so higher at impact than address would affect the angle of approach.

ou teach your way, I'll teach mine. maybe one day this next week I'll sit down and read all 6 pages of this thread. oh well, no matter what, it's a fun subject of debate.

-Brett
 
Barry Bonds does not swing on an inclined plane.

Is it possible you are both right? In a fundementally sound swing, I agree 100% with Brian. In the case of the average or less than average golfer who makes many compensations in his/her swing, is it logical they may apply more force to the ball and hit it farther and straigher by technically hitting up with the driver?
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Wedgey....

The "poorer" the player, the MORE they need to hit down on the driver.

(PS...from now on I am calling it DOWN PLANE force).

Brett...I'll tell you what, Lets have a driver teach off one day.

Only rule is you can't wind up with a player with MORE throwaway (after teaching).

At the end of the day, you'll thank me.
 
quote:Originally posted by Stumper

quote:Originally posted by BigBadDonkey

No wonder he changed his swing and he still hits it all over the place.
You sure can hit up on a Driver .. but make sure you like trees, long grass, swimming, sand castles, alignment problems, inconsistency, bad back.........
I'd dare anyone to try to consistently keep the ball in the fairway swinging over 130mph. remember, speed enhances spin, the ball winds up more offline. He normally hits about 50% of his fairways, which is about one fairway a round less than Tiger this year.

I used Hank because he outdrove Phil Mickelson with less clubhead speed on both holes in that Battle at the Bridges thing last year. Phil hits down, Hank hits up. that's why it happened.

My post was regarding any player, not Hank. Hank is just a bad example, obviously... :D
Maybe he should stop trying to hit 'up' .
 
quote:Originally posted by brianman

Here ya go:

You hit down becuse there is MORE FORCE going on the ball from the top, once theclub is going up (THE GRIP END) the club as a unit is into CENTRIF. DECEL.

But I have said this all, a million times, so here is the final word on it from me.

Hi Brian and everyone.
It looks like you're sick of this argument. If what you're saying is true, then I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't want to write about it anymore.

But I hope somebody will help me with this.

yes, it makes sense that there's more force going into the ball from the top (hitting down).

But how about when I'm hitting a forehand tennis stroke. I can hit down on the ball with a lot of force. But if i want to hit it as far as possible, don't i have to hit slightly up with the racquet?
Yes, I realize there is more power when the racquet is going down, but the ball won't go as far by hitting it like that.

Is this an incorrect analogy?
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Yes, i believe it is an incorrect analogy because you are swinging the tennis racket (more or less) on a horizontal plane of motion verus an inclined angled plane of motion that the golf swing is on.
 
We would all probably agree that in golf, with all else being equal, more force produces more ball speed thus more distance. In tennis, when they want the ball to go "fast", they hit down, not up. No pro hits up on the ball when they serve or play an overhead smash.

If you are just trying to hit the ball high, as in your tennis example, there are situations in golf where hitting "up" on the ball may be preferred if the goal is to hit the ball as far straight up into the air as possible.

Set a tennis ball on the ground and try hitting up on it to get it in the air. I bet it does not work. But, hit down on it, and the ball will bounce up into the air.

There are alot of dynamics that make it hard to compare the two. A tennis ball is so compressable and the strings on a tennis racket are not remotely close to being as rigid as a driver face, a tennis ball spends more time on the "face" of the racket in one shot than the golf ball spends on the driver face in a 100 rounds of golf.
 

Burner

New
VJ got it right when he hit his 280 yard driver off the fairway - and took a divot - on Thursday.

Nuff said!
 
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