Hit DOWN on the Driver...(audio commentary w/pics)

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TGManMachine

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I have read and appreciate what everybody, myself included, is trying to explain with words and bad pics. The only way this issue of driver head path through impact can be resolved is with hard data that can be obtained through launch monitor readings and other technology that is more objective and exact.

Making verbal assertions based on TGM is not a geometric proof, and neither does TGM have any geometric proof that illustrates the entire golfswing, particularily through impact.

This is not the fault of Kelley, because when he wrote TGM he had only limited technological resources, and he did marvellously with what he had. Most of TGM is unassailable, but in the concept of hitting down with the driver it is now technologically apparent that Kelley's observations were not all inclusive. TGM must recognize current knowledge to be complete.

What is needed from TGM is definitive data on the path of the driver head through impact, and that data is technologically available based on launch monitor data and other measuring devices.

I think it is incumbent on the people who promote TGM to recognize that new technology may contradict some of Kelley's concepts, and that Kelley himself would have made the necessary revisions to update TGM. He did it several times before and he would have undoubtedly done it again.
 
bts

bts

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By applying the same swing, I hit it up with the head more away from the target, hit it down more closer to the target and hit it level pretty much in the middle of the stance.
 
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matt

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The 2001 REMAX Long Drive Championship was just on ESPN. I noticed a good amount of the players playing the ball either at or behind the left shoulder. A few had it in front, but there weren't many.
 
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newlydad

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If you get the Callaway golf "Adazine" in the mail, there is an article with pics of the long driver Mobley that just won the Re/Max with the Callaway 454 driver.

In the pics he is clearly hitting down on the ball and hit it over 350 carry in the rain. And I do mean "hitting". His nads are out in front of the ball at impact. Awesome pics.
 
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BigBadDonkey

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Obviously what these 'long drive tournament guys' do is not really relevant. Maybe in their 'game' an ascending path at impact 'may' be beneficial (guessing here) . I heard someone say that hank kuehne (however you spell it) had an ascending impact. That would figure.... he's unusual the way he plays.
The point is ... if you look at all those close ups they show (the camera with the thousands of fps blah blah) and you look at the best players in the world 'generally', they all have a descending or *big maybe* dead level moving driver head at 'impact' .
I have not seen one yet with an ascending moving driver head at impact.
The way these pop goofs try and classgeneralise the driver hitting the ball on the up is absolute junk. That's all that needs to be said.
 
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TGManMachine

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quote:Originally posted by newlydad

If you get the Callaway golf "Adazine" in the mail, there is an article with pics of the long driver Mobley that just won the Re/Max with the Callaway 454 driver.

In the pics he is clearly hitting down on the ball and hit it over 350 carry in the rain. And I do mean "hitting". His nads are out in front of the ball at impact. Awesome pics.
Click to expand...

How do you know he was "hitting down" on the ball if you do not have any launch monitor data to confirm your assumptions?

Because the hands are apparently ahead of the ball at impact does not mean that the driver head is descending. You can have this geometry and the driver head is ascending to the ball because it is rotating around the spinal axis which is well behind the ball.

However if you have concluded that that 6 degree LD driver head must be descending imparting non-optimal ball back spin because the hands appear ahead of the ball, then you may be right. If you could confirm your assumptions with launch monitor data that would verify what you think you see, then we can talk.

Eyeballing snapshots is not geometric proof.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Below are pics of the CURRENT World's Longest Driver Champion.

David Mobley.

Tom Bartlett knows him for the Hooter's Tour where both played for a score and went head to head in LD competition.

So...the guy can PLAY golf too....(Not like some of these gorillas).

This is it. You hit down on it. Period. The lines drawn on pic one are PRECISE and the LOW POINT LINE is as FAR B-A-C-K as it could humanly possibly be.

There is no debate.

But...here is what the GOOFY hit up on it crowd will say anyway
(I'll save them the time)....

"He MAY have the shaft leaning forward but he could still; be hitting up on it. You need a launch monitor to tell for sure."

Bull****!

No chance. Anyone with a brain and a compass could see he would break the shaft trying to drop kick it.

"It isn't OPTIMIUM. The launch monitors say..."

Bull****!

This guy BEAT all of those guys. Soon, they'll all figure out how to pick a DRIVER THAT FITS and they'll hit down TOO!

mobleycircle.jpg

mobley.jpg
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
If you can't say that Mobley is hitting down, please do not spend ANYmore time on this site.

I could show this to a class of 2nd graders and they could see how right I am.

This debate is over.

I win again: 100 to nothing

:):D[8D][:p];)[}:)]
 
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TGManMachine

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Nice snapshot, but if you draw a swing radius from the top button of his shirt to the ball, you will be able to draw a circle resulting in an ascending or level driver head path.

Now if you were able to provide us with the launch monitor data for Mobley, then you would have something to back up your descending head theory.

Pictures are fine but numbers are better. I have my optimal launch conditions which is achieved with an ascending driver head, and I have the numbers to prove it.

(btw - why does LD champion Mobley tee up the ball nearly in the middle of his stance?)
 
Michael Finney

Michael Finney

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keep hitting up on it, then.....when you win a tournament or a long drive competition, let us know...until then, horton...take your optimal numbers and crunch them
 
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BigBadDonkey

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TGManMachine, have a close look next time your watching the golf on the box and you see one of those close up cams with the 'mega FPS' . All the replays I have seen (different players), the Driver is going down, just, at impact. And I can see this very cleary.
Don't take my word for it look for yourself... it's there.
Me personally.. I don't need to see anything else (pictures and lines etc.) ...... end of story.
Obviously don't just look at one and draw a conclusion, look at a few. I doubt you will see many (any) where the clubhead is ascending at *impact*.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Horton...TGmachinee...whatever!

Listen...you are wrong. You are wrong. The shaft is leaning forward. Ever look at a clock.

Listen...you are DEAD wrong, Mobley tees it low, no chance to lean it that far forward and HIT UP.

Listen...BigBAdD is soooooooooooooooooooooooo right.....super duper slow......they hit down...


...the house of cards is falling.......
 
mgjordan

mgjordan

New
TGMManMchine,
Why would you draw a swing raduis from the middle of his shirt? Brian isn't just pulling the arc he drew out of his a**. The arc he drew is the arc the the clubhead made. The bottom, LOW POINT, of this arc is AHEAD OF IMPACT. You can't hit up at impact, then hit down to low point, and then hit up again. You hit the ball, CONTINUE DOWN TO LOW POINT, and then go up. If you impact the ball pre-lowpoint, you MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST HIT DOWN TO LOW POINT.
 
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matt

New
quote:Originally posted by TGManMachine

Nice snapshot, but if you draw a swing radius from the top button of his shirt to the ball, you will be able to draw a circle resulting in an ascending or level driver head path.
Click to expand...

Draw a swing radius from the top button of his shirt to the ball??? What does that have to do with anything whatsoever? The radius is drawn from the center of the circle...which is the left shoulder, not the top button of his shirt.

Look! He's hitting up if you move his circle two feet back! Ridiculous. Now you're just moving lines around in a completely non-geometrically correct fashion.
 
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TGManMachine

New
Mobley's left upper arm is pinned to his left pec through impact (as is Brian's in his swing.gif). The left arm is not rotating around the left shoulder joint because the left arm is connected to his chest. Left arm rotation is finished in the left shoulder joint.

The only rotation that is occuring is around his spinal axis as his shoulder span is rotating the right arm down and the left arm up.

If the left wrist is flat, then the left arm must be in line with the club shaft. If his left shoulder is rotating up and well past horizontal as it shows in the pic, then the entire left arm and hand is being elevated. If the left wrist is maintained flat then there is no more rotation of the club around the left wrist. The left arm-club assembly is therefore being rotated by the rotation of the left shoulder, and that is upwards.

The only center of rotation is around his spine at the neck, and nothing in the shoulder joints.

If you were to swing the camera angle to where the teed ball is at the left foot, then you will see an entirely different perspective of Mobley's swing. You cannot superimpose a geometric circle against Mobley when he is being viewed perhaps 30 degrees off center.

Regardless of all these discussions, the only way to definitively determine what is happening to the driver head coming into impact is with solid launch monitor data that will once and for all measure the angle of attack of the driver head.

No solid launch numbers, no proper geometry of the entire swing, no valid theory proclaiming a descending driver path through impact. There is nothing in TGM except Kelley's assertions that the driver head must descend through impact. Too bad he did not provide any circle geometry to back up his statement.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Ok....you win....23 years of work...tour players that have won majors....all the 1000's of lessons that have help people like you.....you know more than me....go ahead.

But...what if I produced Long Hitters with ABSOLUTE proof....hard data...

Would you beive me then??

???

Of course not.
 
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matt

New
Boy, this guy and horton share the same obsession with launch monitor data and insisting you hit drivers on the upswing. Do a search. Carbon copies. :(
 
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