How to ZERO OUT the path (with Brian Manzella long answer and MATH!)

Status
Not open for further replies.
I started this thread per Kevin's suggestion in the clubface control thread. It should be interesting to hear how Manzella Academy instructors, Brian, and forum members all think of ways to get the path zero'd out.

A few notes:

- we are assuming that you're talking about a "better player," somewhere from pro to 5 or 6 handicap that can hit it where they're looking

- ways to zero out both with and without Trackman are encouraged

- simple musings and random thoughts are also encouraged; sometimes raising more questions can help to find the answer

Here's my first thought: if you have a player who fights a push or pull, what would the zero'ing out involve? Simply aiming more left/right? Altering the pivot/other swing components? How would you know which way to go, based on the player's swing?

Discuss.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
So far, ive been looking at a few things in particular. First, which number is influencing the path the most? Is he hitting too much down to make the path go right? Too little? Is the plane line so far left that he would have to hit too much down to zero it out? Is the plane angle lower so that any downward hit would accentuate the in to out?

So basically, I look at what I think is making the path off the most. Video helps this as well.
 

ggsjpc

New
So, I have a few questions:

I understand that if the vertical shaft angle is 90 degrees that the angle of attack would have no effect on true path. I also understand that a 45 degree shaft angle creates approx. a 1 to 1 relationship between angle of attack and true path. Is there a table somewhere that has been made(or maybe we should make one) that answers the amounts inbetween?

Obviously, body type will play a large role in vertical shaft plane angle as well as swing plane shape. Then you have players that set-up with lower hands(mac o'grady) and players with higher hands(moe norman), not to say that when they actually strike the ball the vertical shaft angle will be the same.

It seems like there are quite a few things, as you've mentioned, that can be tweaked to zero out the path. Is there a "best" way or is it case by case based on what the player can repeat based on their pattern?
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Well, one thing for sure is I try to limit the amount of downward hit and the low plane angle guys seem to be better off aiming a little left rather than trying to swing more left because it does weird things to their face and attack angle.
 
Main factor influencing path is understanding of the proper pivot, until you get that you have very little chance IMO.
 
The following would describe much of the trends seen in Tour golf Instruction. Based on a player with excellent flexibility and decent kinematic sequencing we have the following:

To establish an excellent compression to the golf ball, we need the descending blow. The descending blow properly accomplished with some forward shaft lean creates an inside path. The angles of attack and divot placement need to be very consistent before attempting to zero any path issues. Due to the slight inside path of the club, arm path must be slightly out-to-in through impact to neutralize the inside path created from the downward blow. A more vertical axis tilt and a rounded flattish swing arc with the arms more in front of the body throughout the swing will cause the arm path to work more around the rib cage instead of up and down. (A major source of the block/hook)The final adjustment will be CLUBFACE to path by slightly weakening the grip due to the club to face ratio becoming more squared to one another (zero path and zero face).

Obviously, a Trackman would be needed to verify the findings of such changes accurately.

The other alternative is to Trevino/Couples it and AIM left! The degree of left aim is directly related to the decending blow.
 
Last edited:

Brian Manzella

Administrator
ZERO° PATH, ZERO° CLUBFACE

Here are some terms you need to get right in your coconut:

Horizontal Swing Plane - Plane Line in "Golfing Machine" terms, the base line of a plane.

In general, this is the "direction" of your swing.

Vertical Swing Plane - Plane Angle in "Golfing Machine" terms, the pitch of the roof—so to speak.

Club(head) Path - The path of the golf clubhead—or if you like to think smaller, sweetspot—through impact, in 2D space relative to the ground...on the Horizontal Axis.

Because the arc that the clubhead travels on is so big—relative to the 3/4th of an inch to 1/2 inch that the clubhead is on the ball—this path is actually nearly a dead straight line.

Attack Angle - The path of the golf clubhead—or if you like to think smaller, sweetspot—through impact, in 2D space relative to the sky...on the Vertcial Axis.

True Path - A brilliant Manzella-ism :D that is the actual path of the clubhead in 3D space. Think of it as a combination of Club(head) Path and Attack Angle.

Face Angle - Where the clubface is "pointing" in 2D space relative to the ground...on the Horizontal Axis.

True Clubface - A another brilliant Manzella-ism ;) that is where the clubface is actually pointing in 3D space. Think magnetic lie angle tool. Face Angle + Dynamic Loft + Delivered Lie Angle.

Dynamic Loft - The amount of "delivered" loft at impact. You can have a 60° wedge, but if you "de-lofted" it 10°, you had 50° of Dynamic Loft.

Spin Loft - Delivered Loft minus Attack Angle. A 60° wedge, de-lofted to 50° of "Delivered Loft" hit 6° on the way down, would have 56° of "Spin Loft."

D-Plane A plane angle with three points, the ball, where the TRIE club face is pointing, and where the TRUE path is pointing. Most of the time, the TRUE PATh is on the bottom. The ball will start ~70-85% of the way to the TRUE CLUBFACE, and then curve—UP THE PLANE, toward the TRUE CLUBFACE, until gravity and (or) wind take it out of its journey.

Since the clubhead is striking the ball on the way down with an iron—approximately 6° with a 60° wedge, 5° with a pitching wedge, about 3° with a long iron—the clubhead is STILL TRAVELING downward, outward, and forward on the face of the plane (Vertical Swing Plane).

So, wherever that "Plane" is pointing (Horizontal Swing Plane), the TRUE PATH of that clubhead will be down and out to that line.

With a Driver—which you do not want to hit on the way down, but you can—when it is swung with a 45° Vertical Swing Plane (plane angle), the clubhead is traveling 1° out for every one degree down.

With a club swung at 60°—the club is moving ~0.56° out for every one degree down.

So....

Lets say you hit down 6° at 60° with a 5-iron.....you are also hitting "out" ~3.33°

And since 1° at 100 yards is about ~1.75 yards....

And you hit your 5-iron 185 yards....

You need to AIM and (or) SWING ~3.33° at 185 yards....which is ~11.4 yards left of the target!

That will give you the bottom of the D-Plane on the target line, and you now have to have the CLUBFACE square to the target, or in this case 3.33° open to the "Plane Line."

Aren't you folks glad you have me?



0.222222 x how many degrees less than 90°
 
No wonder when I go back to my swing notes from 7 years ago, I wrote that I had to try to hit a little cut to make it go straight.

Didn't know why. Now I do.
 
Here are some terms you need to get right in your coconut:

You need to AIM and (or) SWING ~3.33° at 185 yards....which is ~11.4 yards left of the target!

0.222222 x how many degrees less than 90°

Geez...does this mean that I've spent years forcing myself to swing to RIGHT field, producing a few great days but mostly very inconsistent days?

Based on your summary, Brian, I need to somehow reprogram my entire view of the swing -- swing arc, clubhead path and angle of attack. Or, in other words, just a few minor adjustments! :confused:

Damn, I think I'm gonna be sick...:eek:

But, then again, this info could be the lighbulb that leads to some great, AHA! learnings!
 
Last edited:
Trevino

Following Brian's explanation, what does this say about trevino's swing/aiming. Reason he aimed left was so that he could zero out his path to hit straightish golf shots?
 
I was following Lee Trevino at the 95 Bruno's senior event in Birmingham Alabama(the year Bob Murphy won) and there is a little 170 yard par 3 with the pin tucked on the right. Lee gets up there starts the ball right of the green and hooks the thing back to the pin to about 6 feet. He starts smiling, turns around and looks at the gallery and says "and they say I can't draw a golf ball".
 
So basically I've set up my clubface on the target line, and when I hit a "push" 10 yards right I shouldn't be disappointed because I hit the exact shot I was set up to hit?
 

ggsjpc

New
texagjosh,

nope. a ball that started just right of the target(for righties) and drew left of the target is the shot you set up for(assuming you are trying to make an on plane swing with a club face pointing at the target and taking a divot after the ball)
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top