How to ZERO OUT the path (with Brian Manzella long answer and MATH!)

[Jared Willerson]

I understand everything but how to get the 11.4 left of the target.

I did some numbers just to make sure I got it..Lets say 50* VSP and 3* down, for every one degree down would equate to ~.79 degrees out....3 deg down * .79 = 2.36 so face needs to be 2.36 open to plane line to hit target

5I = 185 based on prior calcs...must aim 7.64 left of target

Is this correct, if not, tell me how I am wrong. Thanks

 

[savydan]

Wouldn't spin loft be delivered loft PLUS Attack angle to get 56*?

50 - (-6) = 56 degrees.

Attack angle going down is expressed as a negative number.

 

[Jared Willerson]

50 - (-6) = 56 degrees.

Attack angle going down is expressed as a negative number.

Ok...got it

 

[jaridyard]

Someone's going to have to run me through the math in Brians post, I can't get it to add up!

 

[mgranato]

Someone's going to have to run me through the math in Brians post, I can't get it to add up!

You're not doing the math in 3D

I'm a little Johnny Come Lately to this concept, but I find it fascinating and am really trying my best to understand it and apply it.

As sort of mental reboot to the old 2D way of thinking, are we saying that if I line up square (parallel left) while having the face lined perp to my target line and return it there at impact - my ball will not go at my target (straight)?

 

[savydan]

You're not doing the math in 3D

I'm a little Johnny Come Lately to this concept, but I find it fascinating and am really trying my best to understand it and apply it.

As sort of mental reboot to the old 2D way of thinking, are we saying that if I line up square (parallel left) while having the face lined perp to my target line and return it there at impact - my ball will not go at my target (straight)?

My understanding is yes assuming you have some degree of downward hit.

If the clubhead is moving downward, then it is also moving outward. Therefore you will draw/hook the ball as you described your dynamics.

Anyone feel free to jump in here...

 

[dbl]

That doesn't sound right, because it goes counter to the recommendation you must aim left to make the ball go straight.

 

[dbl]

Guess: I think the outward component you mentioned contributes to the face angle being effectively open to the targetline, so the ball will start right of the targetline.

 

[jaridyard]

If the clubheads true path is outward to whatever degree and the clubface is perpendicular to the targetline you will get the draw. If however the face is perpendicular to the path you get a straight push in the described scenario above.

The original thread is asking how to zero out the path, if my understanding of the question is correct that means how do you create a true path 0* to targetline at impact in order to produce a perfectly straight shot.

Now we all know how the angle of approach and vertical plane effects path we also know a perfectly straight ball cannot be hit with a baseline on the ball targetline.

I'd still like to see the formulae to calculate it correctly!! Anybody?

 

[ggsjpc]

If the clubheads true path is outward to whatever degree and the clubface is perpendicular to the targetline you will get the draw. If however the face is perpendicular to the path you get a straight push in the described scenario above.

The original thread is asking how to zero out the path, if my understanding of the question is correct that means how do you create a true path 0* to targetline at impact in order to produce a perfectly straight shot.

Now we all know how the angle of approach and vertical plane effects path we also know a perfectly straight ball cannot be hit with a baseline on the ball targetline.

I'd still like to see the formulae to calculate it correctly!! Anybody?

Jaridyard,

Basically, you will need the D-plane formulas that are stated in the Science and Golf papers. Here are some links that will have some of the formulas but you'll need to purchase the papers to get them all.

Science and golf III: proceedings of ... - Google Book Search

Science and Golf IV: proceedings of ... - Google Book Search

Way beyond my level. I mentioned in a previous thread, maybe this one, that as a group we could make a table that converted VSP and AoA into a path. Probably, harder than I think....

 

[jimmyt]

I'm More Confused than Ever!

I finally get the "D" Plane!, I think! But now you have brought specific math equations into the mix as if you can strike the ball perfectly to fit the equation you just did. Even the pros are not that consistent.

I know this D Plane thing and trackman are supposed to be "Da Bomb", but you have lost me. This thread just confuses the living SH** out of me.

I can't be alone on how the average player or lower handicap person is helped by all of this.

I do want to learn, but I didn't do well in algebra! In fact I sucked.

 

[ggsjpc]

I finally get the "D" Plane!, I think! But now you have brought specific math equations into the mix as if you can strike the ball perfectly to fit the equation you just did. Even the pros are not that consistent.

I know this D Plane thing and trackman are supposed to be "Da Bomb", but you have lost me. This thread just confuses the living SH** out of me.

I can't be alone on how the average player or lower handicap person is helped by all of this.

I do want to learn, but I didn't do well in algebra! In fact I sucked.

Basically, I would equate this conversation that two mechanics would have with each other when talking about the inner workings of a combustable engine.

Most people just need to know that the pedal on the right makes it go and left or middle pedal makes it stop.

A mechanic would want to know how quickly it would accelerate, the force required to do it all the things that the math tells them.

Same thing here. So far no new information has been added. Discussion has been about different things a player can do to end up with a true club path pointed where they want the ball to go(assuming a straight shot).

For example, it still is aim left, did down less/more things like that that the average player would hear from the instructor.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

This is great stuff for a teacher and no so much a great player imo. Teacher should know so that they can help the student hit the various types of shot they want to hit and explain it to them in a way that they can understand.

 

[mgranato]

This is great stuff for a teacher and no so much a great player imo. Teacher should know so that they can help the student hit the various types of shot they want to hit and explain it to them in a way that they can understand.

That's good to know. I have definitely been known to hurt myself by getting in the way of myself from trying to help myself

 

[Jared Willerson]

Personally I enjoyed figuring out the math, but no one has told me if my calculations I. Leftward aim were done correctly. Still a bit confused on that part of the math

 

[watson08]

Glad Doesn't Go Far Enough

Since the clubhead is striking the ball on the way down with an iron—approximately 6° with a 60° wedge, 5° with a pitching wedge, about 3° with a long iron—the clubhead is STILL TRAVELING downward, outward, and forward on the face of the plane (Vertical Swing Plane).

So, wherever that "Plane" is pointing (Horizontal Swing Plane), the TRUE PATH of that clubhead will be down and out to that line.

With a Driver—which you do not want to hit on the way down, but you can—when it is swung with a 45° Vertical Swing Plane (plane angle), the clubhead is traveling 1° out for every one degree down.

With a club swung at 60°—the club is moving ~0.56° out for every one degree down.

So....

Lets say you hit down 6° at 60° with a 5-iron.....you are also hitting "out" ~3.33°

And since 1° at 100 yards is about ~1.75 yards....

And you hit your 5-iron 185 yards....

You need to AIM and (or) SWING ~3.33° at 185 yards....which is ~11.4 yards left of the target!

That will give you the bottom of the D-Plane on the target line, and you now have to have the CLUBFACE square to the target, or in this case 3.33° open to the "Plane Line."

Aren't you folks glad you have me?

0.222222 x how many degrees less than 90°

I thought I had the D-Plane down, but this post on zeroing the true club head path proved otherwise. My misunderstanding had to do with the downward/outward stike. At first, I was confused, but then the light came on. Thanks so much Brian and everyone else who contributed to this oh so important thread. Here is the way I now see it:

Since we swing on a vertical plane, there is an intrinsic amount of outward hit that accompanies any downward strike and it must be compensated for when we aim our plane line if we want to zero-out the true club path. In Brian's scenario, the shot had an intrinsic ~3.33 degree outward strike, so we needed to aim ~3.33 degrees left of a target @ 185 yards and this happens to be ~11 yards left of the target. With this now zero'd out true path and a club face returned to square to the target at impact, we get a perfectly straight shot aimed right at the target. Fantastic!

 

[savydan]

Based on the definitions of the Horizontal Swing Plane and Clubhead Path, what is the difference between these two?

They seem to both be horizontal lines "drawn" along the ground. And Clubhead Path (although an arc) is approximated by a line anyway.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Based on the definitions of the Horizontal Swing Plane and Clubhead Path, what is the difference between these two?

For Boo Weekley—with an 8-iron—about 4.5°

 

[savydan]

Thanks, but I was looking for a general explanation.

I understand True Path (3D) and Clubhead Path (2D along the ground), but why would someone's Horizontal Swing Plane Line (2D along the ground) be any different that the Clubhead Path line? Do they vary because of the Angle of Attack?

 

[ggsjpc]

Thanks, but I was looking for a general explanation.

I understand True Path (3D) and Clubhead Path (2D along the ground), but why would someone's Horizontal Swing Plane Line (2D along the ground) be any different that the Clubhead Path line? Do they vary because of the Angle of Attack?

yes, the horizontal swing plane is the line tangent to the bottom of the swing arc. the clubhead path line is the line tangent to the strike.

here's a link with some good pics to show.

Golf Lag Tips*»*Learn the secret of golf

dashed line would be horizontal plane line, solid line club head path.