How to ZERO OUT the path (with Brian Manzella long answer and MATH!)
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curtisj76
New
If you don't have a trackman, like 99.9% of us, what do we do with "stuff" like this. Because when I swing I don't know how many degrees I'm doing here and how many degrees there. Not to mention I can't be adding/subtracting in the middle of my swing and then multiplying by Pie to try to get some magic number/swing.
Should most of us just skip posts like this? Not trying to be a "penis", I'm serious. Thanks
Curtis
Should most of us just skip posts like this? Not trying to be a "penis", I'm serious. Thanks
Curtis
Maybe skip the specifics/numbers, yeah. But having the general idea of the concepts might make it easier to self-diagnose when you're struggling a bit.
Understand your frustration.
With a mechanical engineering background, I want to understand it precisely - then I want to package it into something "macroscopic" that I can use. I am not trained to understand something "pretty much". That's why a bridge falls down.....anyway....
What I am getting now, is that the more you hit down on it (i.e. shorter irons) the more left you need to swing. In other words, feel like you are hitting a slight cut to hit straight.
With a mechanical engineering background, I want to understand it precisely - then I want to package it into something "macroscopic" that I can use. I am not trained to understand something "pretty much". That's why a bridge falls down.....anyway....
What I am getting now, is that the more you hit down on it (i.e. shorter irons) the more left you need to swing. In other words, feel like you are hitting a slight cut to hit straight.
lol, i hear ya. but the question was, "how do you zero out your path," and that was the answer
vjsinger
New
Thats how I see it as well. IMO the numbers are for teachers, not golfers, it just is not practical fror golfers to use it. I have a job that is not in mathematics/physics whatever, and Im trying to get good at golf, like most of the handicappers here. Just stick with the basics.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
IMO focus more on the concept of the D-plane and understand that your path, your clubface, and how much "down" you hit are going to create the ball flight. If you understand how each one affects flight then you know how to adjust each one (by guessing and trial and error on the range) until the ball does what you want because you don't have access to a Trackman.
I've stated this example before, but let me do it again:
Last year i was trying to hit a knockdown wedge shot into a green about 80 yards away. I lined up dead straight at the pin, put the ball a bit back in my stance, put my normal swing on it with a lot of lean and it was a DEAD PULL. Why? Well because i wasn't aiming left enough for 1 so if i don't aim left enough i will need to have a lot less forward lean at impact to not have such an inside/out impact. So i dropped another ball, aimed the same way but put the ball much further up in my stance and it landed about 15 feet from the hole.
So understanding the aiming, the amount down you hit, and the clubface/clubpath relationship you should be able to golf your ball very well.
if it is true that you have to aim and/or swing different amounts left with each iron (and im sure it is), how is it that pros or good players can have a consistent alignment, whether its closed, open or square isnt important, and still hit all their iron shots straight on a consistent ball flight?
do they subconsciously swing more and more left with the shorter clubs without themselvs even realising?
even myself, hardly a skillful player, instinctively swings more left when i hit a wedge then i do with a 7 iron. ball position maybe?
and before knowledge of the D-Plane was a figment of Jorgensen's mind, how did players hit different irons all straight? my guess is when they hit shots crooked, they put it down to other things such as getting too flat and swinging right, or coming over it slightly and swinging more left, then making adjustments to fix those problems which then effected the D-plane in such a way to make the ball go straight.
that post wasnt supposed to be that long when i started. but then i started rambling...
do they subconsciously swing more and more left with the shorter clubs without themselvs even realising?
even myself, hardly a skillful player, instinctively swings more left when i hit a wedge then i do with a 7 iron. ball position maybe?
and before knowledge of the D-Plane was a figment of Jorgensen's mind, how did players hit different irons all straight? my guess is when they hit shots crooked, they put it down to other things such as getting too flat and swinging right, or coming over it slightly and swinging more left, then making adjustments to fix those problems which then effected the D-plane in such a way to make the ball go straight.
that post wasnt supposed to be that long when i started. but then i started rambling...
ggsjpc
New
Maybe it's just me but this example would make more sense if the first shot drew to much. Maybe it did but I read DEAD PULL as a straight shot to the left. This result does match the fix you made. DEAD PULL would be face closed and path too much to the left. I interpret what you are saying as you had too much down angle of attack forcing your path too much to the right.
Miscommunication or misunderstanding?
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Ball too far back = inside/out swing path + too much lean exaggerates inside/out path, face was too closed for the path and went left.
curtisj76
New
So the second ball technically wasn't a "knockdown" then right? If you wanted to play it you would have just had to aim left (keeping the same amount of lean as the 1st)?
PS Thanks for sharing, I played a few really windy days this year and my punch shots went left, either pulls or hooks. I think the hooks came from purposely having the clubhead closed at address to decrease the loft. Thanks
Ryan Smither
Super Moderator
Like the others, I'm having trouble picturing that shot as a dead pull.
golfbulldog
New
How does clubface alignment (relative to target line/plane line/horizontal line) vary in relation to ball position ( as measured from low point of swing)?
If the ball is further away from low point (ie. back in the stance) - isn't the clubface going to be more open to the target/plane line? Thats why we struggle to see why Jim's pitch went dead pull left when the initial direction( even with forward lean) should have been right of target...then draw spin...no?
Assuming clubhead orbit to be the same as for regular ball position and same plane line through release / impact as for regular ball position?
If the ball is further away from low point (ie. back in the stance) - isn't the clubface going to be more open to the target/plane line? Thats why we struggle to see why Jim's pitch went dead pull left when the initial direction( even with forward lean) should have been right of target...then draw spin...no?
Assuming clubhead orbit to be the same as for regular ball position and same plane line through release / impact as for regular ball position?
Burner
New
The above scenario is utopian and golfers tend to interfere with such ideals.
Subconsciously we all tend to override what appears to be going wrong and, in this case, would try to square the club face (close it to the club head path) and steer the ball away from its natural flight path and onto the one we want it to take - "fore left!".
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ggsjpc
New
Ok, but doesn't this describe a curving ball left and not a straight pull. You can't have a ball fly straight unless path and face match. In your example, face is closed relative to path. So where is the curve?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
NO.
Let me explain why the book literalists want to run away from TrackMan and the D-Plane...
If your stance is square and you swing with a straight plane line, and you move the ball back in your stance a bit more for every shorter club...
You will hit just GOD AWFUL shots with the short irons.
Your path will be WAY, WAY right, and you will hit nasty semi-hooks.
To hit it straight, you have to do QUITE A FEW THINGS that no one had any idea about, even 5 yrs ago.
I have all my numbers right in my head and on paper, but the numbers are only a PIECE of it.
You need different acceleration profiles, different forward leans, and different ball positions, and probably, different grips.
I am NOT going to leak out the specifics, so don't ask.
Let me explain why the book literalists want to run away from TrackMan and the D-Plane...
If your stance is square and you swing with a straight plane line, and you move the ball back in your stance a bit more for every shorter club...
You will hit just GOD AWFUL shots with the short irons.
Your path will be WAY, WAY right, and you will hit nasty semi-hooks.
To hit it straight, you have to do QUITE A FEW THINGS that no one had any idea about, even 5 yrs ago.
I have all my numbers right in my head and on paper, but the numbers are only a PIECE of it.
You need different acceleration profiles, different forward leans, and different ball positions, and probably, different grips.
I am NOT going to leak out the specifics, so don't ask.
golfbulldog
New
Thanks Brian, I think that we all agree on that and that is the bit that I, Ryan Smithers and ggsjpc (and no doubt yourself some years back) were struggling with...
But Jim didn't solve his problem of how to kit a knockdown, he merely moved his ball back to a normal position...I'm sure he has solved it now.
So if you move your ball back in your stance, you need to alter one of the key determinants of ball flight (true path/ true face). Do you achieve that through:-
a) your alignment of horizontal plane line
b) your clubface angle at address
c) all three of them (ie. a and b and the other one which nobody is going to tell?)
Rhetorical question, one for the dirt maybe...
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
He could have hit it on the heel.
benhogan55
New
Holy Crap.....We need a video...Brian always clears things up with a video!
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