Impact illustration..

Status
Not open for further replies.

EdZ

New
rhw - form III levers are not as effecient. They offer less mechanical advantage vs a form I or form II. In fact, they offer less (no) mechanical advantage by definition. A wheel or screwdriver offer mechanical advantage.

I'm with you on maintaining a flat left wrist through impact/separation however.

-------------------------------------------
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761562252/Machine.html

From the section on levers: class III
C Class 3 Levers

A class 3 lever has the fulcrum at one end, the load at the other end, and the force in the middle. The human forearm is a class 3 lever. The elbow is the fulcrum, and the muscles of the forearm apply the force between the elbow and the hand. The class 3 lever always has a mechanical advantage of less than 1, because the load travels a greater distance than the force travels. Consequently, the work requires more effort than would ordinarily be needed. Although they boost the amount of effort needed, class 3 levers are useful for increasing the speed at which a load is moved. A baseball bat and a broom are also examples of class 3 levers, with which a greater effort results in a smaller load moving at a greater speed.

----------------------------

So IF speed is the goal, a class III lever is what you would want

However, you want MASS and speed, not just speed. Simple example, would you rather be hit by a person running at you at 10 mph, or a semi moving at 10 mph?

In golf, we want MASS. It is a big part of FORCE. The reason that 'slow and heavy' is a good swing feel is that it represents a swing with MASS and not just speed.

Of course how we describe the motion is a matter of perspective, but the results of that motion are always, and will aways, be a matter of physics, geometry and anatomy.


So in looking at sustaining the line of compression, applying FORCE in an efficient way, why would you use a class III lever? You want a machine, you want mechanical advantage, but a class III lever is the opposite. ONLY if you want speed over mass would you desire a class III. Yet we want FORCE so MASS is very, very important.

Slow and heavy, "keeping the 7" - are ways of swinging with MASS. Effortless power because you are using physics, using a lever, a class I lever to move the hands. There are, however, multiple levers involved. Those of the human body. Anatomy.
 

holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Holenone
1. What I dubbed the "Target Line" is not a line to be of force, but a visual equivilant of a line bisecting the ball for a visual reference as to WHERE the impact point should be in relation to directly behind the center of the ball. This is why the line bisects the ball, but the impact point is well inside of it. I have added a green dot to indicate the impact point. You may need to reload the image.
quote:One final note: As drawn, the Separation Point Plane Line and the Low Point Plane Line combine as one. Usually, however, the Ball is located well behind Low Point (Up Plane), and that will not be the case. Therefore, unless the Ball is positioned at Low Point, or on a Tee past Low Point, the Separation Point Plane Line will always be encountered prior to the Low Point Plane Line.
2. So then the clubface should actually be slightly closed at the low point and also slightly closed in relation to the swing radius?

[Bold and Numerals by Holenone/Yoda.]

1. My original point remains valid: You have misidentified the Target Line. The Target Line should run through the green square on the 'At Separation' Ball. This is the green line now labeled Initial Ball Direction. This same line would also represent the At Separation Point Plane Line.

And what should you call your existing Target Line? Well, given your purpose, how about Visual Center of the Ball Plane Line? Remember, though, that this is only an illusion: The actual Center of the Ball lies on a line constructed perpendicular to the tangent passing through the green square on the Inside Aft Quadrant. [8D]

2. Assuming Horizontal Hinging and the Ball located more than 3/4 of an inch behind Low Point, the answers are:

a. Yes, past Separation, the Clubface will be Closed at Low Point (because that is the characteristic Closing Only Motion of Horizontal Hinge Action).

b. No, the Clubface is not closed to the Stroke Radius (because it is duplicating the Motion of the blade of a hinge whose pin serves as the Center of the Stroke and which is positioned perpendicular to the Horizontal Plane).
 
Efficiency is still limited by are god given anatomy. I wrap my fingers around the club like a thong, because that is how my hand is formed.
Do you hold the club in your fingers?

Do you have fused straight arms to maintain the triangle's center between the shoulders? No!

Would there be a mechanical benefit to having the swing center behind impact and not aligned or slightly ahead of impact like the left shoulder as center is? No!

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

That depends on how they hold it corky. The grip determines SO much of the rest of the motion, wouldn't you agree?

A grip like Morrison's and you can have both a lever (through impact) AND a flail (post impact).
 

EdZ

New
quote:Originally posted by corky05

Efficiency is still limited by are god given anatomy. I wrap my fingers around the club like a thong, because that is how my hand is formed.
Do you hold the club in your fingers?

Do you have fused straight arms to maintain the triangle's center between the shoulders? No!

Would there be a mechanical benefit to having the swing center behind impact and not aligned or slightly ahead of impact like the left shoulder as center is? No!

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

That depends on how they hold it corky. The grip determines SO much of the rest of the motion, wouldn't you agree?

A grip like Morrison's and you can have both a lever (through impact) AND a flail (post impact).

Corky - if you would like me to answer your questions, please do so in another thread or via email. I wouldn't want you to distract the thread again and then blame me for it.
 
Oh! So we don't like answering questions, only asking them. I get it. I thought we were trying to better understand each other? Thats why we have had a volley of e-mails back and forth. And it hasn't disrupted the forum. Now I reply to your question, very civilly, and you say that? You are your own worst enemy. I'm very sorry for that.
 

EdZ

New
Ok corky - I'll answer your question here if that is what you want, but don't cry that I am the one distracting the conversation.

Everyone OK with that? Corky wants an answer, but he doesn't want the thread distracted. Which is it? No flip flopping. Which do you want?
 
Ed, If you weren't Grand standing for everbody you would have just sent it via e-mail. We have been e-mailing each other for the last hour. As, usual you have center stage, but, its a stage no one cares to share with you. On that note, I think I'll sign off for awhile. Once again you have won everyone over with your charm and eloquence. Hope you feel better, Ed
 

Mathew

Banned
quote:Originally posted by corky05

Ed, If you weren't Grand standing for everbody you would have just sent it via e-mail. We have been e-mailing each other for the last hour. As, usual you have center stage, but, its a stage no one cares to share with you. On that note, I think I'll sign off for awhile. Once again you have won everyone over with your charm and eloquence. Hope you feel better, Ed

Corky it appears you are the provoking force behind this. Perhaps you should read your own comments and think how they apply to ones self....
 

rwh

New
EdZ,

Before we go any further, do you now agree that the Golfing Machine Flail fulfills the role of restricting horizontal movement of the wrist while simultaneously permitting vertical movement?
 

EdZ

New
I'm not clear on that, no rwh. I agree that it is a good thing to have a stable 'unit' connecting you to the club however. I agree that you never want left wrist breakdown.

There are two hinges at the wrist, bend/arch being more anatomical over cock/uncock which is very limited. My understanding of your hinge/TGM's you want zero bend/arch but max cock/uncock. This seems to negate the possible use of the anatomy of the wrist to add speed via that hinge, but it does create a 'long lever' of the arm and club unit, centered between the shoulders.
 
quote:Originally posted by Mathew

quote:Originally posted by corky05

Ed, If you weren't Grand standing for everbody you would have just sent it via e-mail. We have been e-mailing each other for the last hour. As, usual you have center stage, but, its a stage no one cares to share with you. On that note, I think I'll sign off for awhile. Once again you have won everyone over with your charm and eloquence. Hope you feel better, Ed

Corky it appears you are the provoking force behind this. Perhaps you should read your own comments and think how they apply to ones self....

Matthew, put the stone down, you too live in a glass house. plz
 

rwh

New
quote:Originally posted by EdZ

I'm not clear on that, no rwh. I agree that it is a good thing to have a stable 'unit' connecting you to the club however. I agree that you never want left wrist breakdown.

There are two hinges at the wrist, bend/arch being more anatomical over cock/uncock which is very limited. My understanding of your hinge/TGM's you want zero bend/arch but max cock/uncock. This seems to negate the possible use of the anatomy of the wrist to add speed via that hinge, but it does create a 'long lever' of the arm and club unit, centered between the shoulders.

Okay, you agree that you never want the Left Wrist to break down.
Good. This is what the hinge pin prevents from happening.

So, now that we've eliminated horizontal wrist action, that only leaves vertical motion for the Left Wrist. Agree? Or, do you want the Left Wrist to move in some direction other than vertically?
 

EdZ

New
I don't think that the left wrist must never bend/arch (ideally speaking). I think that the left wrist should have a 'slight' arch at impact. So that isn't an elimination of horizontal wrist motion, just a restriction of it to never bend before separation. I would consider Hogan's picture on page 102 of 5 lessons as 'ideal'. Not flat. Flat would be mechanically ideal, but would give you zero margin for error.

Obviously there are multiple ways to swing, multiple ways to support the force and obey the imparatives. I think it is important that we distinguish between the 'physics' ideal and the real world ideal (in which we do things that give margin for error).

Can you clarify the orientation of the hinge pin you are discussing? Parallel to the arm/club or perpendicular? Why not use the bend/arch of the wrists to your advantage, noting that breakdown can not happen until after separation?
 

rwh

New
quote:Originally posted by EdZ

I don't think that the left wrist must never bend/arch (ideally speaking). I think that the left wrist should have a 'slight' arch at impact. So that isn't an elimination of horizontal wrist motion, just a restriction of it to never bend before separation. I would consider Hogan's picture on page 102 of 5 lessons as 'ideal'. Not flat. Flat would be mechanically ideal, but would give you zero margin for error.

Obviously there are multiple ways to swing, multiple ways to support the force and obey the imparatives. I think it is important that we distinguish between the 'physics' ideal and the real world ideal (in which we do things that give margin for error).

Can you clarify the orientation of the hinge pin you are discussing? Parallel to the arm/club or perpendicular? Why not use the bend/arch of the wrists to your advantage, noting that breakdown can not happen until after separation?

Is there some other direction you want the Left Wrist to move other than vertical and a minor a minor amount of arch?
 

EdZ

New
Not at or near impact/separation no. Obviously there are options at other points in the swing, each with a trade off and a benefit, and based on the grip being used.

So for the sake of the discussion, what I believe you are saying is that you want a 'fixed length' from shoulder to clubhead. For the 'geometry ideal' you would have a completely flat left wrist.

So we have a single line/fixed length from shoulder to club. The ONLY time that line/length would change is IF the wrist position changed. IF there were added arch at some point, that length would get shorter and you would have to 'lower center' to reach the ball.
 
quote:Originally posted by corky05

Efficiency is still limited by are god given anatomy. I wrap my fingers around the club like a thong, because that is how my hand is formed.
Do you hold the club in your fingers?

Do you have fused straight arms to maintain the triangle's center between the shoulders? No!

Would there be a mechanical benefit to having the swing center behind impact and not aligned or slightly ahead of impact like the left shoulder as center is? No!

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

That depends on how they hold it corky. The grip determines SO much of the rest of the motion, wouldn't you agree?

A grip like Morrison's and you can have both a lever (through impact) AND a flail (post impact).
 
What do they call that mechanical thing that they use to test golf equipment? Any pictures? Looks like it operates like the left arm and shoulder. With all the BS about efficient machines. Not a single golf company has deviated from making a club tester thats swing center is other than the left shoulder. Things that make you say,Hum? Or, it could be another one of those conspirisies?

I know! Iron Byron!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top