Iron Byron-Lag Vs No Lag

[golfbulldog]

Hi There

It is My Understanding that Iron Byron has s Free Hinge which Attaches the Golf Club to Iron's Arm....... Suppose Iron Byron is Calibrated for a 100 mph Impact Velocity with the Club 90 Degrees to the Arm to Simulate Lag,,,,,, Now the Free Hinge is Locked in a Straight Arm Position to Simulate No Lag.... Iron is Fired with the Same Calibrations as before..... The Question is- What is the Impact Velocity in the No Lag Simulation?

Cheers

Billy - you must have been on enough forums to know that internet is pretty inefficient means of communication and is prone to misunderstanding.... 20 pages of stuff from a relatively straight forward question etc... so just to clear things up:


"same calibrations as before" - does that mean that the engine/rotor does exactly the same as it did to achieve the 100mph clubhead speed and you want to know the amount by which the the stiff arm swing is slowed ( by moving the mass away from the centre)... that is the way it read to me originally.

Now you say that the "Iron Byron arm speed is the Same for Both Cases"... but that would mean different settings ( at least as far as the engine were concerned)...no?

Now if you are saying that the motor applies whatever force is required to move the stiff arms at the same speed as the lagging swing ( programmed to achieve 100mph impact collision speed)... then you are asking an unusual question it seems.... the stiff armed swing has no release and there is no slowing down of the arms ( as long as the engine is set to do whatever it takes to achieve the speed you desire).... the lagging release does have a slowing down of arms and hands as the accumulator lag angle( left wrist cock) is released. So which section of the swing do you want the arm speed to be the same?

Sorry if I misunderstand your intention. What sort of answer are you expecting - a theoretical explaination / equations / a single numerical value???

If you can clear this up for us then cool.

Merci

 

[JeffM]

Doesn't this website answer the question?

See - http://www.tutelman.com/golfclubs/DesignNotes/swing1.php?ref=golfcoast

Clubhead speed is maximised with lag because it allows one to increase "v" for a given amount of torso-torque at the central hinge joint, and it decreases "r" for as long as long as possible. The ultimate effect is that "F" is maximised.

Jeff.

 

[golfbulldog]

Hi There

First of All My(Shaugers) Definition of Sweep Release is not a Stiff arm Swing(No Release).... I Don't Know what the TGM definition is..... I started a Thread Asking the Difference Between Sweep and Snap.... Zero response.... I Switched to a Counter Rotating BackSwing which Implies a Sweep Release.... Best Dam Thing I ever Did in Golf...... I can't prove anything because the Double Pendulum Mathematical Model does Not Apply to Sweep Release in My Opinion............

Cheers

That is making sense - I have read your other posts and i think that you feel that Twistaway is similar to Counter rotating backswing - right??

In TGM terms the twistaway is more like Homer kelley's "Single wrist action" ( IMO)... something that he felt was best suited to hitting rather than swinging ( but not mandatory - TGM is rarely mandatory). The release on downswing that Homer felt best suited the "single wrist action" was the simultaneous release ( this describes the simultaneous release of left wrist cock and rotation of the left forearm into impact) and he felt it could be achieved with sweep/ random or snap release. So i am not sure that i agree with your statement "I Switched to a Counter Rotating BackSwing which Implies a Sweep Release"

Remember that sweep/random and snap release describe the timing of the release during the downswing ( release point).... and Homer felt you could do any of these anywhich way you liked. He was more strongly suggesting the benefit of simultaneous rlease for hitters and single wrist action because this suited the way the right elbow straightening ( the source of hitters power) releases both wrist cock and forearm roll together.

This is my understanding of Homer Kelley's work and rememeber he rarely applied his knowledge to teaching golfers!! I have done slightly less in this field!

 

[mandrin]

Hi There

It is My Understanding that Iron Byron has s Free Hinge which Attaches the Golf Club to Iron's Arm....... Suppose Iron Byron is Calibrated for a 100 mph Impact Velocity with the Club 90 Degrees to the Arm to Simulate Lag,,,,,, Now the Free Hinge is Locked in a Straight Arm Position to Simulate No Lag.... Iron is Fired with the Same Calibrations as before..... The Question is- What is the Impact Velocity in the No Lag Simulation?

Cheers

Bronco Billy,

You really want to get an idea how much one gains from having a hinge at the wrists,

hence to compare the clubhead speed for one vs two lever swinging.

I have just that information for you, have a look here.

 

[mpro]

Mandrin,

Can you tell me why max speed is reached when straight line condition of the two segments occurs?

Thanks,

JD

 

[Bronco Billy]

Bronco Billy,

Your really want to get an idea how much one gains from having a hinge at the wrists,

hence to compare the clubhead speed for one vs two lever swinging.

I have just that information for you, have a look here.

Hi Mandrin

That's Exactly What I Wanted..... It Appears Homer(Both of Them) was Right on this Issue.... Lag is the Secret..... If I am Reading the Graphs Correctly at .25 sec StiffArm-80 mph Lag-133 mph...... WOW.......

Cheers

 

[Bronco Billy]

That is making sense - I have read your other posts and i think that you feel that Twistaway is similar to Counter rotating backswing - right??

In TGM terms the twistaway is more like Homer kelley's "Single wrist action" ( IMO)... something that he felt was best suited to hitting rather than swinging ( but not mandatory - TGM is rarely mandatory). The release on downswing that Homer felt best suited the "single wrist action" was the simultaneous release ( this describes the simultaneous release of left wrist cock and rotation of the left forearm into impact) and he felt it could be achieved with sweep/ random or snap release. So i am not sure that i agree with your statement "I Switched to a Counter Rotating BackSwing which Implies a Sweep Release"

Remember that sweep/random and snap release describe the timing of the release during the downswing ( release point).... and Homer felt you could do any of these anywhich way you liked. He was more strongly suggesting the benefit of simultaneous rlease for hitters and single wrist action because this suited the way the right elbow straightening ( the source of hitters power) releases both wrist cock and forearm roll together.

This is my understanding of Homer Kelley's work and rememeber he rarely applied his knowledge to teaching golfers!! I have done slightly less in this field!

Hi BullDog

I am not a TGMer so Your Post is Greek.... I also Don't Know the Exact Definition of twistaway.... I don't Think I should Discuss Shauger Here.... All's I Know is that when I Rotate the Clubhead 45 Degrees Counterclockwise on the BackSwing..... I Sweep Release on the DownSwing Automatically.....

Cheers

 

[Brian Manzella]

YIKES!!!!!

Listen...

I live in the REAL WORLD of golf teaching. And, for 25 years on the lesson tee, I have fooled around for LARGE SEGMENTS OF TIME teaching very different release 'stuff.'

As in...

1. Taught very well for 5 years teaching everyone a sweep release (a very smooth, gradual uncocking).

2. Taught very well for 7 years teaching 90% of my students MAXIMUM TRIGGER DELAY and a SNAP release (uncocking very late and very sudden).

3. Taught very well for 9 years teaching 50% snap and 50% random release (somewhere in the middle).

4. Taught sometimes very well and sometimes less than very well for 2 years fooliing around with sequenced release, simultaneous release, too much hitting or swinging, and mostly random and snap releases, with some full sweep sequenced releases thrown in.

5. Developed the Manzella Matrix, and teach ALL THE RELEASES in a totally original way, and teach great about 95% of the time and 5% of the time really well.
​

The point?

Each golfer is a UNIQUE "machine."

You need to get them to make the club work like a club...however they do it best.

NOTE: IF YOU FOOL AROUND TOO MUCH WITH ALL THESE DIFFERENT RELEASE IDEAS YOU BETTER BE READY TO PLAY PRETTY POORLY A LOT OF THE TIME, BECUASE, THERE IS PROBABLY ONE RELEASE THAT WORKS WELL FOR YOU, AND IF YOU STRAY TOO FAR....YOU MAY NEVER "GET HOME."

90% of you swing too far to the right or too far to the left.

90% of you have the face too open or too closed.

80% of you have low point in the wrong place.

66% of you have the wrong angle of attack for your pattern.

95% of you have goofy pivot problems (easily fixed).

95% of you have C+ grips at best.

90% of you can't aim where you ought to be.

95% of you have poor to slightly below average set-ups.

That's not taking into account all the poor short games, horrible putting strokes, mis-fittted equipment, poorly conditioned bodies, mental train wrecks, and overall heads filled with bad information!!
​

Fix it!

This release stuff is what you worry about AFTER you fix at least half of the above......and then....maybe.

Trust me folks.

 

[mandrin]

Each golfer is a UNIQUE "machine."

Concur!

Brian, finding the correct specific manual of operation for each and every ‘machine’ takes however someone with an inordinate interest in all golf, not just 'glorifying the past' as by some, but remaining open minded to every new idea and concept coming around the corner. Quite a challenge.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Well....

Concur!

Brian, finding the correct specific manual of operation for each and every ‘machine’ takes however someone with an inordinate interest in all golf, not just 'glorifying the past' as by some, but remaining open minded to every new idea and concept coming around the corner. Quite a challenge.

It is quite a challenge!

But I just LOVE it. Really.

I thank God every day I found something to do that I am good at, have a chance to be the best at, can help people enjoy themselves or make millions, and have fun doing!

It is really a 24/7 deal...1:30am on Thursday morning, I just threw away a Hogan sequence I layed out in Photoshop because it wasn't perfect.

Thanks Mandrin....for everything.

 

[dbl]

Hi There

They Definitly Both are Free Hinges... I Have the Dvd Swing Machine.... The First Twenty Minutes is an Interview with One of the Engineers who Designed the Original Iron Byron.... The Whole DVD is Based on Iron Byron's Free Hinge Swing.....

Cheers

Mandrin's analysis has probably satified your query. But in regards the various machines and designs....The Solheim family have noted some performance discrepancies with the TrueTemper designer's apparent intent, and so designed their own impact machine. "That's why Karsten went into designing his own machine. He designed it with a free wrist because he felt the other machine was too rigid...."

 

[tongzilla]

But...

Not a Math Guy, but, here goes...

If the HAND SPEED could remain the same, a swing that had a snap release would hit it MUCH farther than with a SWEEP release.

Case in point: Mike Finney.....

Ah...but, Mike Finney has NO PROBLEM WITH HAND SPEED. He can throw a golf ball well over 100 yards in the air!

Lindsey has a very strong BODY, and decently strong arms, but little wrist/hand speed. (Never been the pitcher type, but is a high-level athlete. More of a quick point guard).

So Mike's hand speed doesn't slow down with the snap release. He HAD a sweep release and I taught him more of a snap.

Am I making any sense at all....???

I hit it futher with a RANDOM release. I can throw football as far as Mike, but a golf ball goes half his distance....

Get it?

The football slows Mike's hand speed down.

....

Calling Mandrin...

Ben Doyle most probably can't throw a golf ball even 50 yards, but he has one of the snappiest releases who has ever played golf. I wonder if he could hit it further with a more Random Release?

 

[rprevost]

What kind of release does someone like D.J. Trahan use? I understand that his dad teaches that the golfer should not cock his left hand, resulting in a swing to the top, but not the end, of the swing. Trahan hits the ball a long way, doesn't he?

My question is this, even assuming a lot of lag with a snap release, will--in a real life situation--the ball go a lot farther than it would with a sweep release, or is it the case that, given the complexity of the swing, differences in some other part of the swing will cancel out the differences in release? In other words, is the "other things being equal" assumption of this discussion unrealistic, and what one needs to do when considering distance is think about the whole swing?

I ask this question as a 16-handicapper who is trying to maximize distance and want to figure out where to start working on my swing.

 

[geohans]

This is an excellent thread.

a "Random" release implies to me a random clubhead speed result. How can one play consistently with inconsistent clubhead speed?

I realize this conclusion is based on the fact that I don't really know what a random release is. Sweep and snap are clear to me. Can someone explain it, or better yet point out a video example?

 

[mandrin]

Mandrin,

Can you tell me why max speed is reached when straight line condition of the two segments occurs?

Thanks,

JD

mpro,

Prior to straight line conditon the 'clubhead' is moving away from the center, gathering energy, and increasing its speed.

Past the straight line condition the 'clubhead' is moving closer to the center, giving up energy, and slowing down.

 

[mandrin]

Not a Math Guy, but, here goes...

If the HAND SPEED could remain the same, a swing that had a snap release would hit it MUCH farther than with a SWEEP release.

Case in point: Mike Finney.....

Ah...but, Mike Finney has NO PROBLEM WITH HAND SPEED. He can throw a golf ball well over 100 yards in the air!

Lindsey has a very strong BODY, and decently strong arms, but little wrist/hand speed. (Never been the pitcher type, but is a high-level athlete. More of a quick point guard).

So Mike's hand speed doesn't slow down with the snap release. He HAD a sweep release and I taught him more of a snap.

Am I making any sense at all....???

I hit it futher with a RANDOM release. I can throw football as far as Mike, but a golf ball goes half his distance....

Get it?

The football slows Mike's hand speed down.

....

Calling Mandrin...

Brian,

I don’t have an easy answer. A human body is such a complicated machine and so unique as you just posted yourself. Each is a complete kingdom to itself. What is wrong for one person is perhaps correct for another one.

Often overlooked is the ‘connection’ in speed producing. I can really press my arms tightly together and to the the chest, and keep it that way through a very short restricted back swing and get almost more speed than with a full ample arms swing.

There is also the paradox of fast hands producing more cluhead speed and yet hands slowing down through impact results in efficient ‘speed’ transfer to the clubhead. A resent swing vision clip of Tiger on TV showed virtually stationary hands trough impact.

 

[lia41985]

A resent swing vision clip of Tiger on TV showed virtually stationary hands trough impact.

This one?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8wCwJH_VxU&mode=related&search=

 

[JeffM]

Mandrin

You claim that there is visual evidence of Tiger having stationary hands through impact. Are you serious? How is that possible? Please show the evidence. The video in the next thread by lia41985 definitely doesn't show stationary hands.

Jeff.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Brian,

I don’t have an easy answer. A human body is such a complicated machine and so unique as you just posted yourself. Each is a complete kingdom to itself. What is wrong for one person is perhaps correct for another one.

Often overlooked is the ‘connection’ in speed producing. I can really press my arms tightly together and to the the chest, and keep it that way through a very short restricted back swing and get almost more speed than with a full ample arms swing.

There is also the paradox of fast hands producing more cluhead speed and yet hands slowing down through impact results in efficient ‘speed’ transfer to the clubhead. A resent swing vision clip of Tiger on TV showed virtually stationary hands trough impact.

Hi Mandrin

If I Interpret your Post Correctly Are You Not Saying that ARM Speed produces Hand Speed... That is Hand speed is a Result of Arm Speed.... Since the Robots have Free Hinges and Powered Arms, Hinge(Hand) Speed is Determined..... Also What Type of Release Does the Double Pendulum Model Represent-Sweep, Snap, Random, or Other? Also Shouldn't a Mathematical Analysis be made for Each type of Release then a Hierarchy of Release Efficiency could be Established... Also Shouldn't Modern Golf Instruction be Based on the Most Efficient Release whenever Possible.....

Cheers

 

[mandrin]

Hi Mandrin

If I Interpret your Post Correctly Are You Not Saying that ARM Speed produces Hand Speed... That is Hand speed is a Result of Arm Speed.... Since the Robots have Free Hinges and Powered Arms, Hinge(Hand) Speed is Determined..... Also What Type of Release Does the Double Pendulum Model Represent-Sweep, Snap, Random, or Other? Also Shouldn't a Mathematical Analysis be made for Each type of Release then a Hierarchy of Release Efficiency could be Established... Also Shouldn't Modern Golf Instruction be Based on the Most Efficient Release whenever Possible.....

Cheers

Bronco Billy,

The release is largely determined by mechanical parameters and fortunately essentially self-regulating but one can learn to control/delay the release.

In a simple two lever model one has essentially two torques to control the swing and the release - associated with the two pivots.

With a mathematical model, unlike a robot golfer, there is a large flexibility, it is a matter of programming appropriate conditions into the model.

For instance, a 90 degree dead stop to simulate preventing back-knifing of the wrists. But one also can put in some more spongy conditions if desired.