Mmm, it would appear that 3D SPACE is not the final frontier after all, but that the SPACE between yer ears IS!
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Is Lag from the left shoulder through impact possible?
- Thread starter BerntR
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Yes its a dominant feel for me and I try to have a lot of it through impact.
I agree that it's going to pull whether you emphasize it or not - as long as the hands are leading the club and the shoulder is moving. But if you don't feel it you're probably not pulling very hard. The effect will be proportional to how hard you pull and how fast the shoulder moves.
This is what I do in my swing. Shoulder has to move if you pull, otherwise your lead arm will buckle and it all usually breaks down after that. JMO.
Hi guys,
Have to say I am really enjoying the tone and content of this thread.
BerntR a thought occurred to me that maybe the force of the swing is all axial but isolated into the 3 pendulums at the same time. This in turn gives the illusion of a force across the shaft or forward movement of the swing.
Christopher
This aspect of the stroke is certainly important, but there are other parts as well.Hi guys,
Have to say I am really enjoying the tone and content of this thread.
BerntR a thought occurred to me that maybe the force of the swing is all axial but isolated into the 3 pendulums at the same time. This in turn gives the illusion of a force across the shaft or forward movement of the swing.
Christopher
Since the golf stroke is basically a rotary motion there has to be torquing involved. And with torque comes bending moment and shear forces in addition to axial forces. The shoulders will be exposed to bending momentum and shear forces towards for basically as long as they are a power factor.
Most of the best players bend the shaft in the early part of the downswing. This is a "vertical" bending that produces toe lag and speeds up the club head. You have a lot of shear forces and bending moment right there. Then of course you have the force diagram in the Miura paper that shows a lot of shear forces in the middle of the down stroke.
As a simple layman, I understand axial force in the golf swing to be the PART of the force exerted on the ground which is NOT perpendicular to the ground. It is, in layman's terms in golf, surely just the so-called centrifugal pull of the club head away from the golfer's centripetal pull. No?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
This from one of our scientists:
"Just the shaft being “in tension” isn’t going to make much difference to the impact. The motion of the hands to create this “axial tension” may have the effect of increasing club speed."
Like I said, "going normal."
"Just the shaft being “in tension” isn’t going to make much difference to the impact. The motion of the hands to create this “axial tension” may have the effect of increasing club speed."
Like I said, "going normal."
I take that as a preliminary confirmation of my main point, which was that as long as you keep turning those shoulders, and as long as the club hasn't flipped past the hands, the pulling from the left shoulder will create swing speed. All the way to the ball.
I reserve my right to press the impact question later, but right now I think I'll just enjoy my 5 minutes...
And Brian: The speed creation I was talking about - and that seems to be supported by your experts - you don't get it if you go "normal". You have to stay ahead of normal.
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I'm sorry, but this still sounds too much like what Brian and Michael have been saying when they use the analogy of sticking the "hula hoop" in the ground during the downswing and yank it up out of the ground just before impact. You're just describing it using the shoulder as a reference point to the whole motion which isn't a bad thing, but not indicative of a revelation.
Maybe it sounds too much like it to you. And I can understand that.
But I laid out my question as clear as crystal and I still haven't heard Brian or Michael say that i'm right or wrong about what I'm saying. If we were talking about the same thing, but with different words they could simply said so at the get-go. After all, I was just asking a question.
It seems to me like Brian believes that you need to do some special pulling - parametric acceleration where you move the swing center - to keep the action going. I'm saying that just keep turning those shoulders produce swing speed. So there's a certain difference to the H2 understanding, but it seems to be a bigger difference in the understanding of the physics involved.
But I laid out my question as clear as crystal and I still haven't heard Brian or Michael say that i'm right or wrong about what I'm saying. If we were talking about the same thing, but with different words they could simply said so at the get-go. After all, I was just asking a question.
It seems to me like Brian believes that you need to do some special pulling - parametric acceleration where you move the swing center - to keep the action going. I'm saying that just keep turning those shoulders produce swing speed. So there's a certain difference to the H2 understanding, but it seems to be a bigger difference in the understanding of the physics involved.
I did say I am kind of slow sometimes
Even as you turn the shoulders (understanding that the golf swing is not a perfect circle and is more of an elipse) with the hands, clubshaft and club head moving more forward rather than in a circular motion during the flat spot at the bottom of the swing, would mean that there is not one swing center. Wouldn't that mean that there are multiple instantaneous swing centers in relation to the hands and clubhead at any given point during the swing?
I think I'm slowly understanding your question better, but my difficulty may be because it seems to me a point in a small detail and one possibility that can work.
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dschultz6072
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If I wanted to spin a propeller to get it started on say an old biplane, where am I placing my hand to spin it? Why?
I find this thread interesting, not only from a scientific viewpoint, but also from a behavioural one.
My hypothesis: Bernt, a qualified engineer (correct me if I'm wrong) with a knowledge of physics wants to use his knowledge to confirm what he FEELS in his own golf swing. His basis for his claims about lag are some books he has read, some forums he has frequented and his subjective experiences whilst hitting a golf ball. All intertwined IMHO. So he starts from the basis that lag must exist because he "feels" it and then tries to use his knowledge of physics to find an explanation in tune with his experiences.
I'm a good golfer, and I cannot imagine ever trying to accelerate/use the continuation of the shoulder ROTATION to create club head speed though impact. So I believe that what Brian and his scientists are revealing to be (in a broad sense) correct, because it fits in perfectly with my personal experience and feelings.
The point: how much science is tainted by predetermined outcome wishes. Is objectivity really possible?
MikeO seems to have concerned himself with the workings of the brain. Any comments Mikey?
My hypothesis: Bernt, a qualified engineer (correct me if I'm wrong) with a knowledge of physics wants to use his knowledge to confirm what he FEELS in his own golf swing. His basis for his claims about lag are some books he has read
, some forums he has frequented and his subjective experiences whilst hitting a golf ball. All intertwined IMHO. So he starts from the basis that lag must exist because he "feels" it and then tries to use his knowledge of physics to find an explanation in tune with his experiences.I'm a good golfer, and I cannot imagine ever trying to accelerate/use the continuation of the shoulder ROTATION to create club head speed though impact. So I believe that what Brian and his scientists are revealing to be (in a broad sense) correct, because it fits in perfectly with my personal experience and feelings.
The point: how much science is tainted by predetermined outcome wishes. Is objectivity really possible?
MikeO seems to have concerned himself with the workings of the brain. Any comments Mikey?
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Well if you noticed Brian said "if" you get "too" far forward or "too" far around ward "too soon". That's implying you over did it, and the timing is off, not that you can't do it.
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Absolutely, I understand the "if's". BerntR just seems to be advocating the turning of only the shoulders (mostly the left shoulder) to increase speed through the increase of axial force to the club at the risk of dismissing other very important factors in the swing. If the sole focus is on the shoulder turn, then it makes it more likely to be overdone as Brian illustrated in his quote. My point is minor and really has nothing to do with BerntR's original question which I think I now have a better understanding of what he is asking and a general idea as to the answer--I will let the researchers give the definitive answer, though.
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