Just Another Friggin' Golf Myth???

[vjcapron]

The "well-trained" human will get MORE than the "50% gift" that you speak of. A human being is capable of not only ALLOWING the left arm-clubshaft angle to widen, but is capable of ACCELLERATING the widening of this angle at a perfectly timed, rapid rate with hand action and wrist action.

The model relies on the forces of gravity to widen that angle. A human can use the muscles in the hands and wrists to unleash that stored power a lot faster than gravity can (while still complying with the law of the flail, TGM fans).

 

[mandrin]

Bronco Billy,

The essence of my post, being referred to, is to show that two segments allow more velocity to be obtained, with the same effort employed, i.e., the typical velocity multiplication action of the flail. There is no mentioning of any specific release pattern.

 

[golfbulldog]

heh ! that expensive education is going to waste!!

Billy, now a UK guy, educated at a free university, like myself may not have had the benefit of University of $$$.... but do not get hung up on the late release thing...

It is an option... it has benefits....more distance ...lets not get hung up on % and proof... try it and see what happens...it will give you a bit more clubhead speed...but it has a downside... the clubhead is closing very rapidly and uncocking very rapidly at the same time very close to impact...the only way it works is if you let it happen... any interference of conscious thought screws it up....

So the big guys who are strong anyway... they play safe..random release.... feels safer...what the heck..they are big guys.... distance comes easy.... so no need to risk it...

But look at the little fellas...Woosnam, Hogan and a few UK guys who swing really pretty ( but not won big yet)...they go for distance and accept the risks.... they release later...

Thats the truth... and it is free at University o' GBD .... Manzella Campus

 

[Bronco Billy]

O well shoot that explains a lot. I thought you were talking about TGM terms. My mistake on assuming but it's funny because in TGM the term "Sweep Release" exactly means "earliest possible release point."

Hopefully that clears up a some of the misunderstanding.



You have not "Turned My World UpSide Down" so there's no need to apologize, sir.

I guess I'll say- "sorry for putting a damper on your victory party." (you can keep trying though)

...

OK now that I think I have this one straight I will try to tackle exactly what you're trying to put forward on the science end.

Your thesis as understood by me and paraphrased from your writing:

"The 1 or 2 foot travel the club head moves from the 90 degree angle to the angle necessary to Impact the golf Ball contributes very little to total ClubHead Impact Velocity."

"I think the Late Release in the Human Golf Swing is the Biggest Piece of BullSh*t ever Propogated in Modern Golf Swing Theory.....90% or more of ClubHead Velocity is Generated by a Sweep Release like in Hockey.... The Friggen so called Late Wrist release ONLY moves the Clubhead from a 90 degree set down to a position necessary to contact the GolfBall.... The Speed of this wrist movement contributes very little to clubhead Velocity.....What Do You Think of Them Apples..."

...

First of all....how much is very little?

Secondly.....while I don't have any numbers or anything other than my own speculation, I'm having a hard time with the idea that the club does not gain speed when "the angles are released."

Cool Birdman.... Hey from your post I believe you Understand what I am Trying to Say.... You don't have to agree with me.... But at least you see my Position which is a Good thing....

I do NOT have any Mathematics to support my Position.... But I do NOT Believe the rest of the world has any Mathematics to support theirs either.... The rest of the World Relies on the Double Pendulum Math Model which in my Opinion does NOT represent a Human Golf Swing..... Have a Great Day...

 

[Bronco Billy]

Billy, now a UK guy, educated at a free university, like myself may not have had the benefit of University of $$$.... but do not get hung up on the late release thing...

It is an option... it has benefits....more distance ...lets not get hung up on % and proof... try it and see what happens...it will give you a bit more clubhead speed...but it has a downside... the clubhead is closing very rapidly and uncocking very rapidly at the same time very close to impact...the only way it works is if you let it happen... any interference of conscious thought screws it up....

So the big guys who are strong anyway... they play safe..random release.... feels safer...what the heck..they are big guys.... distance comes easy.... so no need to risk it...

But look at the little fellas...Woosnam, Hogan and a few UK guys who swing really pretty ( but not won big yet)...they go for distance and accept the risks.... they release later...

Thats the truth... and it is free at University o' GBD .... Manzella Campus

Jesus BullDog... You Got a Memory like a Friggen Elephant...

 

[Bronco Billy]

Bronco Billy,

The essence of my post, being referred to, is to show that two segments allow more velocity to be obtained, with the same effort employed, i.e., the typical velocity multiplication action of the flail. There is no mentioning of any specific release pattern.

Hi Mandrin

Your Work stands on it's Own and say a Ton in my Opinion.... Unfortunately I think it Pertains more to Golf Robots than Human Golfers for Reasons Stated by Me thruout this Thread...

I was just using it as a reference to jump out on a limb and state my Beliefs... I wish Someone(s) would step up and prove me wrong with Mathematics as opposed to using Worn Out Rhetoric to Beg the Question.....

Have a Great Day...

Cheers

 

[mandrin]

Hi Mandrin

Your Work stands on it's Own and say a Ton in my Opinion.... Unfortunately I think it Pertains more to Golf Robots than Human Golfers for Reasons Stated by Me thruout this Thread...

I was just using it as a reference to jump out on a limb and state my Beliefs... I wish Someone(s) would step up and prove me wrong with Mathematics as opposed to using Worn Out Rhetoric to Beg the Question.....

Have a Great Day...

Cheers

Bronco Billy,

If I take you out for a ride in a helicopter and have you drop together with a stone both you and the stone are subject to the same laws. A human body, as far as a golf swing is concerned, is an ensemble of more or less rigid bodies connected via joints and subjected to torques exerted by contracting muscles.

The down swing basically has two phases – putting things into motion and properly unfolding of arms/club in time to strike the ball with both high speed and proper alignments. High clubhead speed is obtained by starting the swing with arms/club close to the main axis of rotation and unfolding it late but still in time for proper impact alignments. Any attempt to prematurely get arms/club unfolding by applying force/torque with trail arm and hands/wrists will actually reduce clubhead speed at impact.

Prof Jorgensen was likely first to have shown mathematically that any early torque applied at the club/hand ‘joint’ is detrimental to clubhead speed obtained at impact. I have likely made several posts along the same line and it is interesting to note that one is better of trying to resist release than to actively encourage release.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Bronco Billy,

If I take you out for a ride in a helicopter and have you drop together with a stone both you and the stone are subject to the same laws. A human body, as far as a golf swing is concerned, is an ensemble of more or less rigid bodies connected via joints and subjected to torques exerted by contracting muscles.

The down swing basically has two phases – putting things into motion and properly unfolding of arms/club in time to strike the ball with both high speed and proper alignments. High clubhead speed is obtained by starting the swing with arms/club close to the main axis of rotation and unfolding it late but still in time for proper impact alignments. Any attempt to prematurely get arms/club unfolding by applying force/torque with trail arm and hands/wrists will actually reduce clubhead speed at impact.

Prof Jorgensen was likely first to have shown mathematically that any early torque applied at the club/hand ‘joint’ is detrimental to clubhead speed obtained at impact. I have likely made several posts along the same line and it is interesting to note that one is better of trying to resist release than to actively encourage release.

I don't have any problem with all that above except maybe the Helicopter part.... But for the life of me I don't see where it Proves or Disproves my Stated Position......

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Any attempt to prematurely get arms/club unfolding by applying force/torque with trail arm and hands/wrists will actually reduce clubhead speed at impact.

You have no idea how hard it was for me to try and make my students realize that. They always had this idea of "when can i swing harder." Funny, most of their "easy" swings were significantly faster than the "hard" swings they had come to me with.

 

[mandrin]

I don't have any problem with all that above except maybe the Helicopter part.... But for the life of me I don't see where it Proves or Disproves my Stated Position......

Actually I think the Late Release in the Human Golf Swing is the Biggest Piece of BullSh*t ever Propagated in Modern Golf Swing Theory

Bronco Billy,

You arguments are a bit like a bucking bronco, somewhat difficult to follow in all its ‘subtle’ meanderings.

We most likely all agree that good golfers have a late release so your opinion appears to be a bit surprising.

 

[mandrin]

You have no idea how hard it was for me to try and make my students realize that. They always had this idea of "when can i swing harder." Funny, most of their "easy" swings were significantly faster than the "hard" swings they had come to me with.

Jim,

An ‘easy’ swing allows more of the energy/momentum of the arms to flow to the clubhead than a ‘hard’ swing.

Have you ever tried to use as instruction to try to maintain the angle in the down swing including through impact?

 

[Bronco Billy]

Bronco Billy,

You arguments are a bit like a bucking bronco, somewhat difficult to follow in all its ‘subtle’ meanderings.

We most likely all agree that good golfers have a late release so your opinion appears to be a bit surprising.

I Don't have any Problem with all that Above.... Any Release is Nice especially Tom Watsons... His Release is Nice, Early, Slow and His Extreme ClubHead impact Velocity has Nothing to do with his Non Late Release ... Since He is Going to Be the Model Boy for the easiest to learn and Most efficient golf Swing in the Universe in the new Matrix Book.... QED..... I see you Noticed My Horse over there to the Left.... Did You ever Fell Like you were Pedaling like Hell and Not Getting AnyWhere?

 

[sweetser]

I Don't have any Problem with all that Above.... Any Release is Nice especially Tom Watsons... His Release is Nice, Early, Slow and His Extreme ClubHead impact Velocity has Nothing to do with his Non Late Release ... Since He is Going to Be the Model Boy for the easiest to learn and Most efficient golf Swing in the Universe in the new Matrix Book.... QED..... I see you Noticed My Horse over there to the Left.... Did You ever Fell Like you were Pedaling like Hell and Not Getting AnyWhere?

Tom Watson a model for the average Joe? Flowing, big hip turn... hmm, I think I like it.

 

[birdie_man]

Since He is Going to Be the Model Boy for the easiest to learn and Most efficient golf Swing in the Universe in the new Matrix Book....

That actually is possible I think.

(but do isolate that comment from the rest of this discussion)

(not that Watson doesn't have a good swing)

 

[Brian Manzella]

Here is the STRAIGHT Dope!

These are two pictures of our Mike Finney, of near Max Trigger Delay fame.

Mike is a VERY long hitter.

In the first pic, Mike is swinging 115 mph with a certain distance of hand travel in 1/15th of a second.

He also has a ceratin distance of clubhead travel in that 1/15th of a second, which produces 115 mph of clubhead speed at impact.

In the second pic, I Photoshopped his swing to show near zero left wrist trigger delay.

So in the SAME AMOUNT OF TIME—1/15th of a second—with the EXACT distance of hand travel, his new distance of clubhead travel would HAVE TO BE LESS!

However, for a MUTITUDE of reasons, he may be able to have and INCREASE in the distance of hand travel with the near ZERO left wrist trigger delay, which would make up a ceratin amount of MPH loss.

Also, of course, he might play better with one or the other, or something in between.

So, it is NOT A MYTH if you can move the clubhead FARTHER with the SAME distance of hand travel in the SAME AMOUNT OF TIME!

If.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Of course...

Conversely,

If a golf had, say 100 mph with the second release type, they would only be able to pick up the additional clubhead speed if they could maintain their hand speed.!

...And they might not.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jim,

An ‘easy’ swing allows more of the energy/momentum of the arms to flow to the clubhead than a ‘hard’ swing.

Have you ever tried to use as instruction to try to maintain the angle in the down swing including through impact?

NEVER, i have demonstrated to almost 99% of former students how to do a "maximum trigger delay" pitch shot with about 6 fingers in total on the club. I show them that the proper body movements is what gets that in that "laggy" position.

No holding on to anything; well except the grip of course

 

[mandrin]

However, for a MULTITUDE of reasons, he may be able to have an INCREASE in the distance of hand travel with the near ZERO left wrist trigger delay, which would make up a certain amount of MPH loss.

Brian,

I don’t quite agree with your idea.

Acceleration of hands, target wise, increases clubhead speed for pic 1, when club shaft above horizontal, but for pic 2 it decreases clubhead speed

 

[Bigwill]

Brian,

I don’t quite agree with your idea.

Acceleration of hands, target wise, increases clubhead speed for pic 1, when club shaft above horizontal, but for pic 2 it decreases clubhead speed

I have a question in regard to this. With all other things being equal, wouldn't someone with less wristcock be able to get away with more handspeed than someone with a lot of wristcock (due to the person with more wristcock getting the hands too far in front to square up the club)? In other words, wouldn't someone with a lot of wristcock have to slow his hands down more in the impact zone, due to the club being farther behind the hands? Again this is just a theoretical question, with all else being equal.

 

[mandrin]

I have a question in regard to this. With all other things being equal, wouldn't someone with less wristcock be able to get away with more handspeed than someone with a lot of wristcock (due to the person with more wristcock getting the hands too far in front to square up the club)? In other words, wouldn't someone with a lot of wristcock have to slow his hands down more in the impact zone, due to the club being farther behind the hands? Again this is just a theoretical question, with all else being equal.

Bigwill,

Your question is indeed very interesting. Happily enough all this happens virtually automatically. A self regulating release mechanism.

Someone with a late release will automatically have a very large inertial release torque acting on the club, slowing down forcefully the hands/arms.

Someone with an early release will have a small inertial release torque acting on the club and the hands are not slowed down very much.