Lag - Left Arm Reference Point

[cwdlaw223]

1) Where should we start judging/referencing/analyzing "lag" in reference to the left arm in the downswing?
When the left arm is parallel to the ground in the downswing?

45* angle to the ground in the downswing?

2) Is there a standard for measuring/calculating/numerically quantifying lag or are we just going off a feeling in our hands?

 

[Todd Dugan]

I measure the angle formed between a straight line from the left shoulder to the hands and the shaft, at the only time the ball cares about.....impact. The range I find among TOUR players is from a straight line to 10* of shaft lag behind the "upper" pendulum. The vast majority exhibit some lag angle. Specifically, I call this the Clubshaft Lag Angle.

 

[cwdlaw223]

Todd -

The whole shaft? What about lead deflection?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Lag is more about how much the club trails the right wrist, not how much angle you see face on between the left arm and shaft. Unless you have a super strong grip and an outward hand path, that's the only usable lag.

 

[cwdlaw223]

Kevin -

At what point in the downswing in reference to the right hand?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Not sure, I don't really think of it in those terms. Depending on the golfer, it's either behind the right wrist enough or it isn't.

 

[cwdlaw223]

What's the benefit, if any, of holding "lag" in a downswing? Some guys appear to hold "lag" into their downswing while others seem to hold it in the downswing. Increased clubhead speed?

 

[Kevin Shields]

There's no holding anything, especially lag. That's a very "Jeffy" thing to ask.

 

[gmbtempe]

Where does this holding the lag come from, was it a popular teaching point or something. How do you hold something at 100mph?

Its not about how much lag you have at any point in the swing, its how much you deliver at impact, unless you into that throwaway sort of thing.

Rickie Fowler dumps all his super duper laggy swing, while Carl Petterson has very little lag on the downswing but plenty at impact.

 

[Jared Willerson]

I really feel that a lot of people still do not understand that the appearance of lag in a 2d pic is a useless way to confirm if someone has lag or not.

A golfer definitely does not want to "hold" anything. The idea is to get the clubhead to line up with as much speed as desired for the given shot. Chasing a certain "look" on video isn't playing golf it's chasing your tail.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Todd -

The whole shaft? What about lead deflection?

The straight part of the butt section coming down from the hands.

 

[Todd Dugan]

I really feel that a lot of people still do not understand that the appearance of lag in a 2d pic is a useless way to confirm if someone has lag or not.

A golfer definitely does not want to "hold" anything. The idea is to get the clubhead to line up with as much speed as desired for the given shot. Chasing a certain "look" on video isn't playing golf it's chasing your tail.

Not sure what definition of "lag " you're using. But seems to me that the most simple definition refers to the "lower" pendulum "lagging" behind the "upper" pendulum. Yes, a 2D double pendulum......still a useful model for study. And to be sure, there is virtually no great ball-striker who's lower pendulum has passed the upper at impact.

"Chasing a look on video"??? If that's the way you really feel, then you might as well sell your Casios right now. Because the same response can be applied to ANYTHING that you'd use video for.

 

[cwdlaw223]

There's no holding anything, especially lag. That's a very "Jeffy" thing to ask.

That's an insult!!!! I play more than 9 holes a year and have real data for my clubhead speed. If video is a 1,000,000 words he's silent with impact data for all to see his alleged 109 mph clubhead speed!

 

[Kevin Shields]

Yes but since a golf swing is not 2D, lag shouldn't be measured using this model. The lag that a real golfer uses is the lag behind the right wrist, even though you are certainly correct that it doesn't pass the left arm, save for perhaps guys like Westwood

 

[birly-shirly]

Not sure what definition of "lag " you're using. But seems to me that the most simple definition refers to the "lower" pendulum "lagging" behind the "upper" pendulum. Yes, a 2D double pendulum......still a useful model for study. And to be sure, there is virtually no great ball-striker who's lower pendulum has passed the upper at impact.

"Chasing a look on video"??? If that's the way you really feel, then you might as well sell your Casios right now. Because the same response can be applied to ANYTHING that you'd use video for.

Todd - I know you're a big fan of Cochran & Stubbs. So, what are your thoughts on measuring lag the way you describe, using the left arm as a proxy for the upper lever, rather than a line from somewhere in the hand-wrist area to the sternum (which is where C&S located their "swing centre" - albeit one that moved)?

Also, where would you draw your upper lever relative to Westwood's bent left arm?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Where does this holding the lag come from, was it a popular teaching point or something. How do you hold something at 100mph?

Its not about how much lag you have at any point in the swing, its how much you deliver at impact, unless you into that throwaway sort of thing.

Rickie Fowler dumps all his super duper laggy swing, while Carl Petterson has very little lag on the downswing but plenty at impact.

Since the chief misfit apparently still copies and pastes everything from here, he should read Greg's post. You need lag, you just don't hold it. Anyone who can do it should know this. They love to giggle at things like "out toss" and other things they don't understand, but they are all put in to delay the fleeing out of the club and preserve lag, or whatever, later in the downswing.

But he won't paste this on his ridiculous site because he wouldn't have anything to rip on.

 

[spmurph]

Too many threads feeding the D-League these days.

 

[Jwat]

Since the chief misfit apparently still copies and pastes everything from here, he should read Greg's post. You need lag, you just don't hold it. Anyone who can do it should know this. They love to giggle at things like "out toss" and other things they don't understand, but they are all put in to delay the fleeing out of the club and preserve lag, or whatever, later in the downswing.

But he won't paste this on his ridiculous site because he wouldn't have anything to rip on.

Kevin,

For guys like me who have zero lag or right wrist angle, shouldn't we learn to get lag at some point in the swing? It has been said several time that the release isn't for everyone, would you consider me on the side which absolutely doesn't need to focus on early release?

I understand how lining it up and less tugging will get my path on more of a leftward plane, but it feels like it has killed my club head speed and not really made me any more consistent at impact. So would guys like me and gmbtempe benefit less from the early release? I just think at some point to get consistent and pick back up the distance I lost this year, I am going to have to learn to be more open at impact with a little more lag at some point in the downswing.

BTW, I read a tip you had told someone from 2008 from BManz where he said "No axis tilt until after the sit on the DS". This has really helped me from getting so far out in front of the ball.

 

[mgranato]

5 questions that sounded good in my head

1. Can you have forward shaft lean without some lag at impact?

2. If not, wouldn't dynamic loft be an indicator of lag?

3. If so, then wouldn't spin loft be an indicator of the effectiveness of said lag?

4. If yes, then wouldn't the increased compression (compression = spin loft) be the only benefit of lag at impact?

5. Consiquently, wouldn't the only honest way to measure lag be with a LM?



If the answer to any of these is "No"... please disregard the next question(s).

 

[cwdlaw223]

The Joker runs wild in a new Gotham City!