Lag - Left Arm Reference Point

[Kevin Shields]

Jwat, the one thing that never seems to change in your move is the amount of hinge in your wrists. Have you ever experimented with grip types and more wrist hinge?

Just an observation but I'm curious about the comment about guys having half of your golfing ability. How do you define that?

 

[Jwat]

Jwat,

I think the comments related to "back to the target" have to do with keeping your back to the target longer on the downswing while the arms get swinging. Brian mentioned in one of his recent "how to" posts that from the top of the backswing you should allow your arms to drop so that the clubhead is 20 to 30 inches from the ball whille essentially keeping your back facing the target in the first part of the downswing. Have you tried that drill?

It's hard to get the arms "swinging" if they move 1-for-1 with the pivot.

Yea during my lesson we spent a lot of time on that drill. But what I am saying is that for some, all they have to think about is get the back to the target and hold it closed. But in reality, our arms, shoulders, hips and knees all move independently. So for me, getting my back to the target by just thinking that is impossible. Therefore if you are not properly turned from the beginning, you will never ever be able to hold the back to the target starting the DS.

I agree with the 1-for-1 stmt. But lets get real, I can hold my back to the target on the DS and still not be magically fixed. I will still look exactly like the still photo of 3/4 of the way down with no wrist hinge, lag, or whatever you want to call it. Every good player has a totally different wrist angle than what I do.

Tugging is not the only problem.

 

[Bigwill]

Jwat, the one thing that never seems to change in your move is the amount of hinge in your wrists. Have you ever experimented with grip types and more wrist hinge?

+1, and maybe add looking at grip pressure to the list above. A little lighter grip pressure could add to the more "laggy" look you're trying to achieve.

 

[Jwat]

Jwat, the one thing that never seems to change in your move is the amount of hinge in your wrists. Have you ever experimented with grip types and more wrist hinge?

Just an observation but I'm curious about the comment about guys having half of your golfing ability. How do you define that?

Yes I have been experimenting alot this year. My grip is strong and in the fingers with some ulnar deviation. The more I wrist hinge on the BS the more skanky my shots get, especially with the driver.

By golf ability I mean several different things. The guys dont have my athletisim, hand/eye coordination, strength, club head speed, work ethic, knowledge of the swing, etc.

They hit the ball right in the center of the clubface each time and when they miss it, it isn't by much. I on the other hand hit it in the meat maybe once a round with my driver (maybe), irons are low on the face and towards the heel.

I mean how many low digit handicappers do you know that swing like 10 hcp'ers? Most of the time they hit the ball good and short game or course management sucks. I am not trying to hold myself on a pedestal to the guys I play with. But I never have a good ballstriking round, ever! If I did, I would shoot under more times than not. I am just trying to be truthful with myself and my game because that is what it take to improve. I keep all my stats. I have played with +3-+5 guys where I put their short game to shame (their words), thanks to BManz. I out drive most of these guys hitting it in the heel. My sole issue is ballstriking.

+1, and maybe add looking at grip pressure to the list above. A little lighter grip pressure could add to the more "laggy" look you're trying to achieve.

I do think the grip pressure is important. I have actually been implementing some bend in my elbows at address to release some tension from the hands and wrists.

Check out last year when Brian had me doing the LCT, not a very good angle but I think it is the only time in my life when I had some sort of wrist hinge in the DS.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Ok, now that speaks more to perhaps the root of the problem. If more wrist hinge makes the shots skankier, why would that be? Because it puts the club even further behind your pivot. You resist wrist hinge and throw it down even more to keep up with your body. Probably why Brian wanted you to work on out toss and why your seffort to do it makes you throw it away even more. Your body is so aggressive that an out toss, to you, spells even more throw. It's designed to store the clubhead and delay everything in the downswing.

I know what you're saying about low handicappers but it certainly isn't always the case. I know tons of ball striking junkies that hate getting beat by the chippers and putters. Just go to any club pro event.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Saw the edit. Just out of curiosity, why did you stop doing the LCT? Was the ballflight not good?

Also, could you post up a swing using that Orange Whip?

 

[Jwat]

Saw the edit. Just out of curiosity, why did you stop doing the LCT? Was the ballflight not good?

My sequencing started getting out of sorts and I started hitting pull hooks exclusively. Wish now I would have stuck with it.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I could see that. If the LCT gave you more angle, you may have felt the hit would be later and flipped it a touch or strengthened your grip. Any chance of seeing that OW swing? Does it help you feel anything?

 

[Jwat]

 

[Jwat]

I could see that. If the LCT gave you more angle, you may have felt the hit would be later and flipped it a touch or strengthened your grip. Any chance of seeing that OW swing? Does it help you feel anything?

The LCT makes me feel like I get it in the hitting slot each time on the DS with plenty of hinge. Getting the wrists hinged immediately on the way up of the BS I think allows me to have some in the DS.

With as much tug and being underplane as I have been for the last couple of years, I am sure I started getting alot of axis tilt on the DS as well when doing the LCT. That would promote the pull hook, right?

 

[BertramSterling]

Just been to the range myself, and this is something I can struggle with, so I feel where you are coming from..

For a long time I heard all about how open the tour players got their hips at impact. Since I was not particularly open at impact, I figured they were rotating harder and faster throughout the swing to get there.

NOW I think what *can* happen in my swing is I can rotate the hips (and then shoulders) too quickly, out of transition. Effectively this means my arms have to catch up to the pivot someplace, and the pivot stalls.
As an aside to this, the quickness from the top means pressure on the left arm/chest, which tugs on the left arm and pulls the hands forward (toward the target) --> early release of the club head (the hands getting ahead of the center of gravity). Annnddd...so much for 'replace the left arm' when this happens.

So for me, I have to think of it backwards - start with the arms and then bring the pivot in. I end up at least as open as the other way, if not more open at impact.

Of course Hogan's 5 lessons says different. But I wonder how people swung in those days, all arms maybe? And I expect you see more athletic people on the course nowadays who have the ability to pivot too aggressively...

I submit this post humbly; you are a better player than I and have been around here longer, but maybe something will click.

 

[natep]

I used to have the same issue, Jwat. In fact, I think my first thread on this forum was titled "My arms cant keep up with my body!!" I was able to fix it, its just a sequencing issue with the arms and the pivot. For me, I was too stretched at the top and then when I'd pivot hard the arms had no chance of getting in front of me. Good luck man you'll figure it out.

 

[Tophdad]

Just been to the range myself, and this is something I can struggle with, so I feel where you are coming from..

For a long time I heard all about how open the tour players got their hips at impact. Since I was not particularly open at impact, I figured they were rotating harder and faster throughout the swing to get there.

NOW I think what *can* happen in my swing is I can rotate the hips (and then shoulders) too quickly, out of transition. Effectively this means my arms have to catch up to the pivot someplace, and the pivot stalls.
As an aside to this, the quickness from the top means pressure on the left arm/chest, which tugs on the left arm and pulls the hands forward (toward the target) --> early release of the club head (the hands getting ahead of the center of gravity). Annnddd...so much for 'replace the left arm' when this happens.

So for me, I have to think of it backwards - start with the arms and then bring the pivot in. I end up at least as open as the other way, if not more open at impact.

I've had same experience. Pivot running away from the top is no good.

 

[dschultz6072]

Pretend you're in a wheelchair and you wanted to play golf. If you didn't figure out how to get the arms to do their part you'd fall out of your wheelchair trying to hit the ball anywhere.

Try swinging in a chair and see if it doesn't help, like this:

 

[Robbohank]

Nice vid Dschultz. I still have to remind myself to NOT get the pivot over-doing things, especially early in the downswing. This is a great example of the feel I have when I do it right, and the ball really likes it.

 

[mgranato]

Mike,

After watching the first ASII video, especially the stuff on clubhead lead/lag, I wonder if conditions like "forward shaft lean at impact" have any meaning, i.e. any effect on spin loft.

I've only had a chance to go through the ASII once, but that sounds like a good point. Just seems that the presence of lag would have a quantifiable fingerprint on impact. Just spit ballin'.

 

[gmbtempe]

Jwat, the hands are late but I think its a combination of pivot issues and some backswing issues. Even with zero wrist hinge, which I agree is an issue, you should not be that late at P6.

Also it could be me or is that face wide open at P5? I looked at your recent face on on your youtube channel?

 

[Jwat]

When is P5?

 

[gmbtempe]

When is P5?

P4 top of the swing
P5 arm parallel to ground downswing
P6 club parallel to ground downswing

 

[gmbtempe]

When is P5?

Here is P6........its actually shows how athletic you are to get the club on the ball from this position. The club should be at your right leg or so IMO.