Lag Pressure Talk

[Ringer]

shoot54today,

The force a golfer can put on the ball during impact is about 1000 times smaller than the very large inertial forces generated between ball and clubhead.

One can imagine any mystique property one likes for this puny gently little force but small is small and even a Chinese scientist can’t change that fact.

Care to explain why it's so small?

 

[mandrin]

Care to explain why it's so small?

Ringer,

A golf enthusiast like you should know that even a few lbs attached to a hosel, with shaft clamped in a vise, produces considerable flexing of the shaft.

In a real golf swing one does not notice more bending of the shaft than corresponding to the bending caused by a few lbs, as above.

Sometimes a simple common sense approach is all that is required to tackle a problem thought to be opaque to reason.

Yet I am sure that many will continue to think that Tiger applies a terrific force onto the ball during impact - which he does not.

 

[Ringer]

Ringer,

A golf enthusiast like you should know that even a few lbs attached to a hosel, with shaft clamped in a vise, produces considerable flexing of the shaft.

In a real golf swing one does not notice more bending of the shaft than corresponding to the bending caused by a few lbs, as above.

Sometimes a simple common sense approach is all that is required to tackle a problem thought to be opaque to reason.

Yet I am sure that many will continue to think that Tiger applies a terrific force onto the ball during impact - which he does not.

I'm not quite sure how that answered my question but ok.

What I think you're saying is that the hands never actually feel the clubshaft flexing and since you can't feel it flex you can't do anything to change it. But that's really just a guess at what you mean.

 

[daniell]

1. The shaft is timing mechanism.

2. The shaft assist the golfer in creating the proper impact aligments of the clubhead and clubface for the desired shot.

Brian,

I agree with and understand both points.

However, there's probably a simple and scientific reason as to why Jim's swing speed increases while he switched to a heavier and stiffer shaff.

If clubhead speed does in fact increase (or reduce) while using different shaft flexes, then the shaftbend and kick is the force affecting the clubhead speed prior to impact. Bear in mind that the force has already been transfered to create a faster clubhead speed prior to impact. Thereafter, the clubhead and ball have a 'hell of a party' as Mandarin puts it.

cheers,

daniel

 

[shoot54today]

This from a personal trainer:

I wish I was bright enough to lend some meaningful insight to this conversation. Here is my (hopefully not pathetic) attempt, for whatever it's worth:

a. Every great ball striker I have ever known or seen has one thing in common: they wear out the sweet spot on their irons. They hit it RIGHT in the middle of the clubface almost every time. That has to be really important.

b. Great athletes have a natural instinct for how to time their release perfectly. By this I mean they maximize angular velocity right at impact. Since moving to Baltimore I have, at various times, played golf with former Orioles Larry Sheets, Joe Orsulak, and BJ Surhoff. Every one of them KILLS it. Orsulak easily outdrove my driver with his 3-iron, although he had no idea where it was going. Sheets used to hit these "stingers" off the tee that would go 320-330 at a height of no more than 5 feet off the ground. Other pro athletes I have played with, such as former QB Mark Rypien, also KILLED it off the tee. Regardless of how pretty or not pretty their swings are, their timing is unreal.

c. I believe that "A" is crucial, but only part of the equation. I believe that "D" (deceleration) is also crucial. The most powerful athletes are the ones that are the best at "slamming on the breaks," which in golf leads to incredible transfer of energy. Alwyn Cosgrove, who trains many MMA fighters and other explosive athletes, says:

"The speed of a kick or punch is determined largely by the ability of the antagonist to eccentrically decelerate the joint action... If your body cannot safely and effectively break the motion, then it will not allow you to achieve full acceleration. If you are not training the antagonists eccentrically, you are not training deceleration. And if you are not training deceleration, you cannot be training acceleration."

 

[lia41985]

Absolutely not

If clubhead speed does in fact increase (or reduce) while using different shaft flexes, then the shaftbend and kick is the force affecting the clubhead speed prior to impact.

Re-read what Jim wrote in his post. He swung harder with the stiffer shaft because he didn't have to time the kick of the whippier shaft--this made him subconsciously swing slower. You've confused cause and effect.

 

[mandrin]

I'm not quite sure how that answered my question but ok.

What I think you're saying is that the hands never actually feel the clubshaft flexing and since you can't feel it flex you can't do anything to change it. But that's really just a guess at what you mean.

Ringer,

Look again at my arguments. Just facts no feelings. Simply cause and effect.

 

[mandrin]

I watched a YouTube video of Brian and he talked about how the ball is on the clubface for a period of time during impact. If one is accelerating at impact, the ball compresses more and stays on the clubface longer. Did Tiger learn this from his good friend Roger Federer? Does this explain Tiger's ballspeed numbers?

shoot54today,

Golf is a frustrating sport for the average amateur as it requires a fair amount of time and money to arrive at a descent level of play. Yet even hardly practicing or taking lessons many still want to resemble at least a bit to Tiger.

Hence, snake oil vendors of equipment or concepts are always finding a warm welcome by a fair percentage of the golfing public. One of the more subtle problems is that arguments employed frequently are not strictly wrong it is just that they are of no consequence.

If I jump up the earth is being thrown out of its orbit but trillions of decimal places are required to specify this information.

 

[Ringer]

Ringer,

Look again at my arguments. Just facts no feelings. Simply cause and effect.

Mandrin, you aren't saying ANYTHING. Water is clear. Sky is blue. Cows give milk.

There, I said a bunch of facts. Can I be juvenile and self absorbed now too?

Dude, you haven't explained ANYTHING. I asked a simple question and got gobledy gook.

 

[mandrin]

Mandrin, you aren't saying ANYTHING. Water is clear. Sky is blue. Cows give milk.

There, I said a bunch of facts. Can I be juvenile and self absorbed now too?

Dude, you haven't explained ANYTHING. I asked a simple question and got gobledy gook.

Ringer,

You say you are are here to learn but a bit of effort won’t hurt.

If A leads to B than noticing B allows to presume A.

 

[Ringer]

I give up. I am trying to learn but frankly, you're a horrible teacher. All I wanted was an explination why the you said, "The force a golfer can put on the ball during impact is about 1000 times smaller than the very large inertial forces generated between ball and clubhead." But instead I got a, "Well you should already know.." Smart ass remark.

 

[Vicious Circle]

I give up. I am trying to learn but frankly, you're a horrible teacher. All I wanted was an explination why the you said, "The force a golfer can put on the ball during impact is about 1000 times smaller than the very large inertial forces generated between ball and clubhead." But instead I got a, "Well you should already know.." Smart ass remark.

With respect Ringer, after 20 pages in this thread and others,,, you ought to.

Mandrin like most good teachers challenges the student. The shaft in vise example was pretty straightforward IMO.

 

[golfbulldog]

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7554&highlight=shaft+flex

Mandrin does this on an annual basis - converts a few of us each time ... did search for " shaft flex" and username "mandrin" and you can see he does it in 2005 and 2006!!!

Impossible to resist the force of Mandrin!!!! just like resist impact deceleration is futile!!

 

[mandrin]

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7554&highlight=shaft+flex

Mandrin does this on an annual basis - converts a few of us each time ... did search for " shaft flex" and username "mandrin" and you can see he does it in 2005 and 2006!!!

Impossible to resist the force of Mandrin!!!! just like resist impact deceleration is futile!!

golfbulldog,

It goes with the season, snow and such things.

Next item on the agenda for coming off-season, a closer look at the various ideas and myths attached stubbornly to shaft behavior and how they keep 'kicking' around.

 

[Ringer]

With respect Ringer, after 20 pages in this thread and others,,, you ought to.

Mandrin like most good teachers challenges the student. The shaft in vise example was pretty straightforward IMO.

So maybe since it's right there in front of us, you could take a stab at explaining it to me.

 

[shoot54today]

I give. Lets talk more mechanics in the golfswing and how handicaps have gotten worse over the past two decades with more information available than at any time in history. Please be advised that there are teachers out there teaching speed training, with little emphasis on mechanics, and their students are improving. Maybe the golfwing can me a reactionary movement.

It's just a topic for discussion. Not Gospel. Meant to be thought provoking. That is why there is chocolate and vanilla cake.

Gotta run. There's a great article on the takeaway I want to digest. LOL.

 

[Bronco Billy]

I give. Lets talk more mechanics in the golfswing and how handicaps have gotten worse over the past two decades with more information available than at any time in history. Please be advised that there are teachers out there teaching speed training, with little emphasis on mechanics, and their students are improving. Maybe the golfwing can me a reactionary movement.

It's just a topic for discussion. Not Gospel. Meant to be thought provoking. That is why there is chocolate and vanilla cake.

Gotta run. There's a great article on the takeaway I want to digest. LOL.

Hi There

Every Time I Stick My Head in the Sand I Can't See A Dam Thing.....

Cheers

 

[Bigwill]

Is there a way we can use this theoretical information to marry the physics (what's actually happening in the impact interval) with the empirical data (what the golfer feels, or what he's trying to accomplish through the impact interval)?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Yup.

Is there a way we can use this theoretical information to marry the physics (what's actually happening in the impact interval) with the empirical data (what the golfer feels, or what he's trying to accomplish through the impact interval)?

You need to create PROPERLY DIRECTED SPEED.

How?

1. A Good Backswing Pivot (not one of these un-athletic ones).
2. A proper blending of Axis Tilt and torso rotation to help creat the force and DIRECT that force.
3. Proper directing of the butt end of the club for the selected release.
4. A SNAPPING of the Kinentic Chain from the ground up.
5. Good Impact Alignmnets.
6. A swivel that controls the clubface and the butt of the club rotation.

That'll do it.

 

[lia41985]

Another gold nugget. Thanks, Brian.