Waynkie Doodle
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What are the normal 'side effects' and ball flight of a swing being too layed off at the top? What is a good way to go about checking to see if the club is where it is supposed to be?
laying it off?
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Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
laid off tends to equal a lot of misses BOTH ways consistently. Like with every swing you might push the hell out of it right or you might snap hook the crap out of it.
see Tiger Woods.
see Tiger Woods.
Waynkie Doodle
New
Sounds like exactly the way I played today. All I could do was push it or snap hook it. Then when I got home and made a backswing and stopped at the top...I all of a sudden realized the club was almost behind me. Explains a lot. thanks.
jenhaoyen
New
Laying it off is just too hard to play golf. I wish I never took a lesson from my local pros. It made me play worse.
I think whatever lesson you take from somebody, you should always take it as a advise, and not too concentrate on what they tell you. Instead you should focus on how to apply those things with your swing.
I think whatever lesson you take from somebody, you should always take it as a advise, and not too concentrate on what they tell you. Instead you should focus on how to apply those things with your swing.
laid off tends to equal a lot of misses BOTH ways consistently. Like with every swing you might push the hell out of it right or you might snap hook the crap out of it.
see Tiger Woods.
Jim,
Would you prefer to work with a student who's laid off or one who's ott? Surely you have a better chance of getting him/her on track if they have a tendency do get shallow at transition rather than steeper?
Of course most instruction seems to be geared to to the 85 percentile stock ott slicer. How boring.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
ott is easier to fix no doubt, but either is fine. i just like educating people a bit and getting them to hit it better.
birdie_man
New
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Just my opinion, but laid off gets too much bad flak. There's a ton of good players who are laid off. Dont fix it just to fix it. It has to be the single root of what is causing your problems.
perhaps others can help me understand this better...i am not 100% clear on the definition.
is the definition of laying off a swing with a plane that is considered lower than the normal range, ie, looping around the upper back?
or is it a "normal" planed backswing, but with a "funny" wrist bend that points the clubhead to the left of the target, even if fully turned with the spine?
or it is a flat swing like the first one i mentioned, but with that funny wrist angle, so flat and twisted?
is it a plane issue or a combination of both plane and clubface? if there is clubface involvement, is it often open or closed?
thanks!
is the definition of laying off a swing with a plane that is considered lower than the normal range, ie, looping around the upper back?
or is it a "normal" planed backswing, but with a "funny" wrist bend that points the clubhead to the left of the target, even if fully turned with the spine?
or it is a flat swing like the first one i mentioned, but with that funny wrist angle, so flat and twisted?
is it a plane issue or a combination of both plane and clubface? if there is clubface involvement, is it often open or closed?
thanks!
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
as a percentage of those on tour and successful (not fighting to keep their card) how many? im not saying you cant play good golf from a laid off backswing but it is few and far between, even on tour which is why i really dont prefer anyone to play from there, why make golf harder?
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I disagree that a laid off position in and of itself is harder to play from. Across the line presents a ton of miscues for some people. Laid off the same. I dont agree that we should classify one as bad, too general for me. One could easily argue that a laid off position has one move to the ball, across the line has two. So which one is really more complicated?
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
we will probably agree to disagree on this one; i just feel that for most people you will be able to play better golf from slightly across the line than if you were slightly laid off. I just don't see any real good players play from a laid off position. Few in the hall of fame, few on tour.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Out of how many? See this is the argument that always comes up and i am not saying that it isn't IMPOSSIBLE but just very difficult. You named 6 people, how many players have played professional golf? That's my point.
I can name plenty more.Joe Durant who is year in year out the best ballstriker on tour is laid off.The molinari brothers.Knudson was laid off and he was a HOF ballstriker.The list could go on.
And most of the good players that are slightly across the line at the top usually start their downswing with a lay off move.They just do it a little later.
And most of the good players that are slightly across the line at the top usually start their downswing with a lay off move.They just do it a little later.
The current US open champion is quite a bit laid off,not a little.
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Snead, Hogan, Faldo, Garcia, McDowell, Fowler, Price, Singh, Trevino.....
This isnt really much of an argument. Im not pro laid off anyway. Ill teach them both. The only real reason across the line works for handicap golfers (and some pros like Kenny Perry) is most have some degree of early unwind and early axis tilt, which both lay the club off more. So a properly done across the line move with little rotation of the LAFW will result in a laying off of the club right onto the plane in the downswing. Most people who go across the line will actually slide the club right under plane or the hands.
Most good players would be far better served if they played slightly laid off and didnt tilt early and used FATS from the top. But as usual, it has to be looked at on a case by case basis,
.......in my opinion.
This isnt really much of an argument. Im not pro laid off anyway. Ill teach them both. The only real reason across the line works for handicap golfers (and some pros like Kenny Perry) is most have some degree of early unwind and early axis tilt, which both lay the club off more. So a properly done across the line move with little rotation of the LAFW will result in a laying off of the club right onto the plane in the downswing. Most people who go across the line will actually slide the club right under plane or the hands.
Most good players would be far better served if they played slightly laid off and didnt tilt early and used FATS from the top. But as usual, it has to be looked at on a case by case basis,
.......in my opinion.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Every good player lays off the club a bit at transition, i'm not denying that. But if you are already a bit laid off and then lay it off more in transition (which will tend to happen) then you are working under the sweetspot and will fight it the whole downswing unless you are very good not too.
We just have differing opinions. I see both sides, but no matter how good a player is if they are going to error to one side, i'd say slightly across the line. Again, my preferences.
We just have differing opinions. I see both sides, but no matter how good a player is if they are going to error to one side, i'd say slightly across the line. Again, my preferences.
What is the difference between proper flattening of the shaft on the downswing and being "laid off?"
Also, I'd love to have this "problem" as I've been fighting an overly-steep downswing as long as I've been playing.
Finally, what would you gentlemen suggest is the best way for a too-steep hacker to flatten the shaft on the downswing? Most instruction I've seen seems to indicate that the hip bump should do the trick. My hip bump doesn't.
Thank you.
gumper
Also, I'd love to have this "problem" as I've been fighting an overly-steep downswing as long as I've been playing.
Finally, what would you gentlemen suggest is the best way for a too-steep hacker to flatten the shaft on the downswing? Most instruction I've seen seems to indicate that the hip bump should do the trick. My hip bump doesn't.
Thank you.
gumper
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Personally, Gumper, unfortunately id have to see it to make any kind of opinion.
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