Whoa Nellie....WHere's the Torque?? 
That would be the "laying off" torque, or "negative tumble torque."
The following statement will help a lot of folks:
I (and a lot of other good golf teacher/thinkers) KNEW there was a "tumble torque." I named it before I ever met Steven Nesbit. That backyard video, which was actually a lesson review for a player of mine, was pre-Nesbit. I was on to something, huh?
The Steven Nesbit defined "Beta" is EXACTLY THAT.
So, Nitro, the laying off move is probably most often Negative Beta, just like it shows in the graph above when the green line goes below the white line.
I don't like the word tumble. There's a point where the trailing clubhead passes the
hands in the downswing and gets closer to the target line. In a good golf swing that
usually takes place in the area where the shaft approaches a parallel position to the
ground. To me, it's not a sudden falling and it can be pinpointed with precision if you
know what you're doing.
Call it what it is—BETA TORQUE.
I like tumble.
And, looking at the graph above, it is OBVIOUSLY not a sudden move. After going negative, it ramps up before DIVING inward.
And no, I didn't consider the off plane torque (BETA/Tumble) to also occur down by the ball. But, boy does it go negative fast!!!
I am not sure in all the teaching here that this high hands question has been adequately discussed. ...when you occasionally connect from the high position you immediately understand how much more power is available from there.
No doubt.
Please explain why TT ShaftLab downswing shaft loading profile which determines and defines the position of the clubhead... toe-up and toe-down... has "nothing" to do to "tumbling"?
Also how do you instruct for "tumbling" throughout the downswing?
Might want to ask our good friend Richard Franklin who watch a WHOLE BUNCH of different lessons last week as he was in auditing my instruction.
It
can be done.
In many great and dynamic golf swings, like Sergio and Fowler for example, the shaft lays down in transition to the point where the shaft may point at or above the ball in transition. In order for the clubhead to have an unimpeded line to the golf ball, the hands move down and in as the clubhead "tumbles" out toward the ball.
ABSOLUTELY, babe.
Just look at the graph!!!!!
The reason most players don't feel a true tumble immediately after transition is because their shaft is too steep and tumbling the club further would create fats, pulls and toe hits. Tumbling the club can also help shallow golfers with open clubfaces square the clubhead and improve their angle of attack.
Perfect description.
I have been doing this for two months and it is helping. The obvious drawback for an early turner (me) is that it turns to dragging a bunch if you are off that day. If I slow everything down I have found I can hit the ball really well, but I wonder if a lack of strength in the hands and arms prevents me from being able to tumble fast enough to go faster.
Any thoughts?
The graph has all the answers.
And a MAJOR ANSWER is when the alpha & beta go negative.
I really identify with what drewyallop is saying here. In fact, I'm now skeptical that laying it off at the top is as valuable as people are saying it is. Seems to me that steep shoulders + a flat left arm plane at the top works great as long as the shaft isn't too far across the line. Heck, look at Quiros!
Quiros lays it off. Laying it off a bit is not only valuable, but almost necessary. Just the amount varies. But you can be skeptical.
Here is the deal, there is TORQUE and there are POSITIONS.
Sometimes the TORQUE creates the obvious position from the torque, sometimes not.
I can push on that house next door to me all I want, but it doesn't seem to want to move off of its foundation.
Lindsey said "Who knows where and when a player is trying to apply force. "
Good call.
You win;t just whistling Dixie.
Surely out toss and tumble are 2 moves?
Just like Nitro said, it is all one big move.
But it may FEEL LIKE two.
Tumble? Not the way
Brian defines it with the butt of the club pointing to the ground.
Brian's Tumble:
At that point in the swing, EXACTLY WHAT I AM SHOWING!!!
But the torque, not the position.
Everyone should get it now?
Right....?
