left wrist bend after impact? (with Brian Manzella Video Answer)

[puttmad]

Sorry you "flat" guys, I don't agree with you....
Get yourself in an impact position, with the left wrist flat.. then look at the right wrist. Is it flat?
Now extend your swing to a couple of feet after impact, while retaining the flat left wrist and straightening your arms....nothing should change except for a slight ulnar deviation (arms and clubshaft trying to form a straight line)...
You will find your right wrist has exactly the same amount of "cock" in it. It will not be straight...
So now straighten your right wrist...and watch what your left wrist does at the same time...

 

[tourdeep]

Sorry you "flat" guys, I don't agree with you....
Get yourself in an impact position, with the left wrist flat.. then look at the right wrist. Is it flat?
Now extend your swing to a couple of feet after impact, while retaining the flat left wrist and straightening your arms....nothing should change except for a slight ulnar deviation (arms and clubshaft trying to form a straight line)...
You will find your right wrist has exactly the same amount of "cock" in it. It will not be straight...
So now straighten your right wrist...and watch what your left wrist does at the same time...

my grip is meutral to weak.

placing the club in my left hand and extend it toward or inside the target line somewhat paralllelel to the ground. I have the clubface nearly or facing the ground with a flat left wrist. Take a right hand grip at this position. The amount of left forearm roll will get you to that position without a bend/flip.

My right wrist will be fully uncocked, but the back of the hand will be flat and will be near or facing the sky while the left wrist remains flat.

 

[JeffM]

Puttmad

I presume that you actually mean "hinge" when you state "cock" as the right wrist is slightly hinged backwards at impact (and the right wrist is never in a cocked postion during the backswing and downswing).

You then state that if the right wrist straightens post-impact that I must watch what my left wrist does at the same time. I have performed that maneuver and I note that my left wrist remains flat and that it doesn't bend back (dorsiflex). If your left wrist bends back then you are performing the wrist movements incorrectly through the impact zone.

The best description that I have seen regarding the correct wrist movements through the impact zone is by Nick Bradley in his book "The 7 Laws of the Golf swing".

This is the photo from his book.

He calls the wrist release action a "puck release" action because it reminds him of the way that an ice hockey player propels the puck along the ice. It's a swivel action that allows the right wrist to straighten in a pronating fashion that causes it to roll over the left wrist which is simultaneously supinating. During this entire action, the left wrist remains essentially flat as it supinates under the pronating right hand. Because the right wrist is simultaneously pronating as it unhinges completely just after impact, it doesn't force the left wrist to bend backwards. The left hand is simultaneously supinating at that same point in time, and that allows the right hand to roll over the left hand without forcing the left hand to become dorsiflexed.

Jeff.

 

[Cope]

What?

So much wrong here.

 

[self-mastery]

MEH

Go watch his videos, practice his swing for a few months, get lost in forum debates, chat with MA zealots, really watch his videos again, do a lot of none forum reading, tinker, connect Austin's swing with other similar ideas, read this really old boring golf book from the early 1900's, tinker, cut the fat, gain your own knowledge through experience, no more theories, and never hit a driver under 290 (fade swing).

SM- Connecting the dots...

Figuring it out for myself... priceless

Flat to bent- DUH

 

[niblick1]

Puttmad is correct. You can't have a perfectly flat left wrist and a perfectly flat right wrist at the same time without perhaps employing a stunning new grip in which the back of the hands both face the ground.

The left wrist in the "hockey puck" pictures above is clearly "bent" in the last picture.

 

[puttmad]

...

Puttmad

I presume that you actually mean "hinge" when you state "cock" as the right wrist is slightly hinged backwards at impact (and the right wrist is never in a cocked postion during the backswing and downswing).

You then state that if the right wrist straightens post-impact that I must watch what my left wrist does at the same time. I have performed that maneuver and I note that my left wrist remains flat and that it doesn't bend back (dorsiflex). If your left wrist bends back then you are performing the wrist movements incorrectly through the impact zone.

The best description that I have seen regarding the correct wrist movements through the impact zone is by Nick Bradley in his book "The 7 Laws of the Golf swing".

This is the photo from his book.

He calls the wrist release action a "puck release" action because it reminds him of the way that an ice hockey player propels the puck along the ice. It's a swivel action that allows the right wrist to straighten in a pronating fashion that causes it to roll over the left wrist which is simultaneously supinating. During this entire action, the left wrist remains essentially flat as it supinates under the pronating right hand. Because the right wrist is simultaneously pronating as it unhinges completely just after impact, it doesn't force the left wrist to bend backwards. The left hand is simultaneously supinating at that same point in time, and that allows the right hand to roll over the left hand without forcing the left hand to become dorsiflexed.

Jeff.

Jeff,
The wrist can't be "essentially flat"..
It is either flat (impact position flat) or it isn't..

In n the third phot of the above sequence the wrist is NOT flat...

 

[JeffM]

Sigh!

Puttmad - try and understand the principles. The left wrist is not quite flat in that 3rd photo because the clubshaft is too far ahead at that point in time (which is a reflection of right wrist palmar flexion) and there is too much right wrist hinging relative to right hand pronation. However, if one pronates the right hand while the right wrist is straightening and ensures that the speed of pronation exceeds the speed of right wrist straightening (palmar flexion), then it is possible to roll the right hand over the simultaneously supinating left hand without causing left wrist bending. This is what happens in a horizontal hinging action (roll over). By contrast, if one uses angled hinging, which is a no-roll situation, then the degree of right wrist pronation per unit time is less relative to the degree of right wrist palmar flexion, and that will cause a small degree of left wrist bending - as seen in that photo.

Jeff.

p.s. I may make a swing video showing all these various possibilities from roll to no-roll.

 

[holeout]

Puttmad

I presume that you actually mean "hinge" when you state "cock" as the right wrist is slightly hinged backwards at impact (and the right wrist is never in a cocked postion during the backswing and downswing).

You then state that if the right wrist straightens post-impact that I must watch what my left wrist does at the same time. I have performed that maneuver and I note that my left wrist remains flat and that it doesn't bend back (dorsiflex). If your left wrist bends back then you are performing the wrist movements incorrectly through the impact zone.

The best description that I have seen regarding the correct wrist movements through the impact zone is by Nick Bradley in his book "The 7 Laws of the Golf swing".

This is the photo from his book.

He calls the wrist release action a "puck release" action because it reminds him of the way that an ice hockey player propels the puck along the ice. It's a swivel action that allows the right wrist to straighten in a pronating fashion that causes it to roll over the left wrist which is simultaneously supinating. During this entire action, the left wrist remains essentially flat as it supinates under the pronating right hand. Because the right wrist is simultaneously pronating as it unhinges completely just after impact, it doesn't force the left wrist to bend backwards. The left hand is simultaneously supinating at that same point in time, and that allows the right hand to roll over the left hand without forcing the left hand to become dorsiflexed.

Jeff.

It looks to me like his left wrist is bent in the second, third, and fourth photos in the sequence.

Maybe it's just me.

 

[JeffM]

Niblick - how can you tell for certain that the left wrist is bent in the last picture. One can readily see that the left wrist is slightly upcocked, but one can only tell if it is bent (dorsiflexed) if one can see its relationship to the back of the lower left forearm, and the back of the lower left forearm is not visible in that photo. When I perform a complete horizontal hinging action in the early post-impact phase of the swing, I can readily pronate the right hand during the time period that the right wrist is straightening, and ensure that the degree of pronation is sufficently great so as to straighten the back of the right wrist without allowing the right wrist to palmar flex. If the right wrist doesn't palmar flex and the left hand is supinating actively so as to roll under the pronating right hand, then there is no reason why the left wrist has to dorsiflex. It's the difference between roll (horizontal hinging) and no roll (angled hinging) and the photo demonstrates an action that is much more an angled hinging action than a complete horizontal hinging action with more complete roll over. If there was a more complete roll over action, then the back of the left hand in that photo would be facing far more groundwards (as seen in the Ernie Els photo) than being near-parallel to the ball-target line (as seen in the above photo).

Jeff.

 

[birdie_man]

Puttmad is correct. You can't have a perfectly flat left wrist and a perfectly flat right wrist at the same time without perhaps employing a stunning new grip in which the back of the hands both face the ground.

The left wrist in the "hockey puck" pictures above is clearly "bent" in the last picture.

VEEEGE:

 

[JeffM]

Puttmad

I have thought of another way of explaining a complete roll over of the right wrist.

Hold your right hand in the impact position - without a club and without the left hand being present. Note that your right hand is hinged back slightly and that the palm of the right hand faces the target. Now, abruptly pronate the right hand so that the right palm faces the floor (a 90 degree palmar rotation). Note that the right wrist is now straight - even though you didn't deliberately palmar flex the right wrist while actively pronating the right wrist. In other words, the right wrist become straightened without any active palmar flexion - and you can think of the palmar flexion being incorporated into the pronation move. In other words, if you have a significant amount of pronation (complete roll over) then the right wrist becomes straightened without any active palmar flexion - it's as if the previous right wrist dorsiflexion mysteriously disappears during the pronation process.

Now imagine a left hand at the impact position (with its flat left wrist) and imagine that the left hand is supinating as fast and as completely as the right hand so that the back of the left hand faces the ground (90 degree turn). In that situation, the left hand is rotating under the pronating right hand and it can remain flat.

That state of complete rollover, if actualised in a "real" golf swing, would cause the clubface to face the ground, while in horizontal hinging the clubface is parallel to the ground because horizontal hinging is incomplete roll over.

Jeff.

 

[puttmad]

...

VEEEGE:

I was thinking of exactly the same pics Birdie....you can see Phil in exactly the same position...BUT:
Try doing that WITHOUT removing your right palm from the grip......

 

[puttmad]

..

Puttmad

I have thought of another way of explaining a complete roll over of the right wrist.

Hold your right hand in the impact position - without a club and without the left hand being present. Note that your right hand is hinged back slightly and that the palm of the right hand faces the target. Now, abruptly pronate the right hand so that the right palm faces the floor (a 90 degree palmar rotation). Note that the right wrist is now straight - even though you didn't deliberately palmar flex the right wrist while actively pronating the right wrist. In other words, the right wrist become straightened without any active palmar flexion - and you can think of the palmar flexion being incorporated into the pronation move. In other words, if you have a significant amount of pronation (complete roll over) then the right wrist becomes straightened without any active palmar flexion - it's as if the previous right wrist dorsiflexion mysteriously disappears during the pronation process.

Now imagine a left hand at the impact position (with its flat left wrist) and imagine that the left hand is supinating as fast and as completely as the right hand so that the back of the left hand faces the ground (90 degree turn). In that situation, the left hand is rotating under the pronating right hand and it can remain flat.

That state of complete rollover, if actualised in a "real" golf swing, would cause the clubface to face the ground, while in horizontal hinging the clubface is parallel to the ground because horizontal hinging is incomplete roll over.

Jeff.

Sorry Jeff, but you are getting away from the original subject..
In Ma's sequence that we were originally discussing there is next to no rollover (it wasn't a trait of Mike's swing)...
Therefore please don't bring roillover into the picture when it isn't there....
It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a flat left wrist when the right wrist is unpronated and flat IN THE POSITION IT IS IN IN THE PHOTO.....

 

[puttmad]

...

Puttmad

I presume that you actually mean "hinge" when you state "cock" as the right wrist is slightly hinged backwards at impact (and the right wrist is never in a cocked postion during the backswing and downswing).

You then state that if the right wrist straightens post-impact that I must watch what my left wrist does at the same time. I have performed that maneuver and I note that my left wrist remains flat and that it doesn't bend back (dorsiflex). If your left wrist bends back then you are performing the wrist movements incorrectly through the impact zone.

The best description that I have seen regarding the correct wrist movements through the impact zone is by Nick Bradley in his book "The 7 Laws of the Golf swing".

This is the photo from his book.

He calls the wrist release action a "puck release" action because it reminds him of the way that an ice hockey player propels the puck along the ice. It's a swivel action that allows the right wrist to straighten in a pronating fashion that causes it to roll over the left wrist which is simultaneously supinating. During this entire action, the left wrist remains essentially flat as it supinates under the pronating right hand. Because the right wrist is simultaneously pronating as it unhinges completely just after impact, it doesn't force the left wrist to bend backwards. The left hand is simultaneously supinating at that same point in time, and that allows the right hand to roll over the left hand without forcing the left hand to become dorsiflexed.

Jeff.

Jeff,
In the 4th photo of this sequence, the left wrist must be cupped if the heel pad of the left hand is in its correct position on top of the grip, as is indicated by the shape of the glove opening.
Look at the second pic and see how far up the arm the glove is (and the wrist is not even flat in this pic)...Now compare with the last picture..

 

[tank]

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9513&page=3&highlight=flip

The above links to another thread where Brian Manzella States:

In a "Pure Swinging" procedure, the left wrist bends post impact.

When it bends has a LOT to do with BALL CONTACT and GROUND CONTACT.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Sometimes when the left wrist looks bent from face on, there is an illusion. If the camera moved in an arc with the swing,the clubshaft would still be up the left arm and the wrist still nearly flat. it only looks bent sometimes because it is starting it's re-hinge.

 

[JeffM]

Puttmad

We obviously disagree about the basics. I look at the MA photo and I see a significant degree of rollover - possibly to the same degree as Ernie Els, where the back of Ernie Els' left hand (in the second photo) is facing groundwards. If Ernie Els didn't have roll over, the back of his left hand would be facing the tush line, and be parallel to the ball-target line, and perpendicular to the ground, at this point in the followthrough. However, Ernie Els significantly supinated his left hand, and pronated his right hand, in the early followthrough and this represents roll over. MA looks like he may be doing the same thing.

Jeff.

 

[birdie_man]

I was thinking of exactly the same pics Birdie....you can see Phil in exactly the same position...BUT:
Try doing that WITHOUT removing your right palm from the grip......

Ah yes very true.

Tou che'.....per-se.

(I did the rhyme crime)

 

[cmartingolf]

Geez,

You guys are wearing me out! I hurt my head reading this....

1. The "Puck" release: funny for a Limey to know a darn thing about hockey. I'm a transplant Canuck, played hockey for 30 years and sure the bottom wrist (on the stick) can do whatever you want it to do for the type of action you want on the puck....but the action Bradley is talking about is for a softer style shot, a "flip" per se.

2. The left wrist in picture 2 on the Bradley pics shows a very BENT left wrist IMO....not that my opion means much.

3. This look Bradley shows in his book will get a lot of hackers doing exactly what they want to do....return a club to the address position.... how 'bout showing some pics of HOGAN and his BOWED left wrist at impact??????

Cheers