lot of pros bend 2 degrees down on their irons, therefore hitting it down even more?
- Thread starter jenhaoyen
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birly-shirly
New
For the fitting advocates -
how bad do you think a set of standard-lie irons would hurt 90% of golfers? I don't really care whether we're talking about Titleist std or Ping std - feel free to take a worst case scenario.
Do you think too-flat and too-upright are equally bad - or is one worse than the other?
What's a tolerable margin for error in lie angles?
Do you make D-plane adjustments when you choke up on the grip?
how bad do you think a set of standard-lie irons would hurt 90% of golfers? I don't really care whether we're talking about Titleist std or Ping std - feel free to take a worst case scenario.
Do you think too-flat and too-upright are equally bad - or is one worse than the other?
What's a tolerable margin for error in lie angles?
Do you make D-plane adjustments when you choke up on the grip?
birly-shirly
New
Good point Wulsy. Does Ping black vary between Sweden and Japan?
I'd agree that 4* upright is a lot. I wonder for how many people a standard lie would be 4* too upright.
I'd agree that 4* upright is a lot. I wonder for how many people a standard lie would be 4* too upright.
magicmarker
New
I don't think they would hurt the 5'10 average player too much. The good swings will just center around a pull-draw if the lie is too upright or it may be that the good swings will center around a low fade if the shaft is too stiff. When your natural swing falls into a pull-draw or a push fade your misses can be straight shots or SERIOUS misses. It is just easier to play with your natural swing that produces a straighter flight, that way your misses turn into little draws or baby fades. JMO
I adjust more for how level the lie is than I ever have for choking up or down.
Everyone is different but I notice if mine are a degree off of where I want them, sometimes even a half a degree flatter will feel sooo much better. You can notice it with or without the ball. The club will be harder to get into the earth bc the whole bottom of the club brushes the ground at the same time. When it feels right, you'll know... and you won't wanna have it feel any other way.
Just a quick question.You hardly ever encounter a level lie out on the course especially if that course is links style.Would that play havoc with your properly fitted clubs?
I have always been of the opinion that good players can learn to play with anything unless of course if they are way,way off in their lie angles.Five feet two male players probably should not use standard mens lie angles.
I have always been of the opinion that good players can learn to play with anything unless of course if they are way,way off in their lie angles.Five feet two male players probably should not use standard mens lie angles.
birly-shirly
New
I don't think I really believe in the idea of a natural swing - certainly not one which is fixed and consistent to such a fine level of detail as we're talking about here in terms of changes of 1 or half a degree of lie angle. I agree that each player will have tendencies in terms of general movement patterns, and probably a bias in terms of getting the clubface either open or closed - but I think that the swing is in a fairly constant state of flux, reacting to lots of influences. The club and its fit is certainly a factor, but it's only one factor alongside the lie of the ball, the shot you're trying to make, wind, the swings you've been making previously, and for all I know, what you've been reading. In this context, I think a change in lie angle of a degree or so, in terms of its impact on D-plane factors, just gets swallowed up in the overall process of continuous adjustment and reaction.
People happily alter the length of their clubs up to a couple of inches by choking up on them for different shots. But a half inch in length equates to roughly a degree of lie angle.
It's hard to argue that clubs shouldn't be fitted around some idea of optimal. I guess what I'm saying is that I think the margin for error has to be quite wide.
Actually, I think the idea that clubs have to be fitted to within half a degree is kind of a harmful conception to have. It suggests to me a focus that is more on executing a perfect swing from a perfect lie, than on being able to execute the kind of shot making adjustments that ej20 mentions.
magicmarker
New
how large of a margin is acceptable then?
the interaction with the sole of the club and the turf will EXACERBATE the mis-direction caused by a poor lie angle. if the lie is too upright then the heel gets into the ground before the toe and this closes the face more and causes the ball to go further left than the lie angle alone. the reverse is true for too flat of a lie angle.
in regards to links style uneven lies. I never hit off mats, ever, so to me every lie is different. I'm not sure I follow the logic that since the lies will be uneven then there is not much of a point in setting your clubs to a more natural lie angle.
the interaction with the sole of the club and the turf will EXACERBATE the mis-direction caused by a poor lie angle. if the lie is too upright then the heel gets into the ground before the toe and this closes the face more and causes the ball to go further left than the lie angle alone. the reverse is true for too flat of a lie angle.
in regards to links style uneven lies. I never hit off mats, ever, so to me every lie is different. I'm not sure I follow the logic that since the lies will be uneven then there is not much of a point in setting your clubs to a more natural lie angle.
birly-shirly
New
I don't know. I already asked that same question. I've got 2 sets of pings - std and 1 degree flat respectively. They're much of a muchness - as far as I'm concerned. I've also got another set of irons which I think are flatter still but I still feel fine playing with.
Statically, I measure up 1 degree upright in pings and I've got one blue dot wedge which I like. But then I once had a wedge that was either 2 or 3 degrees up and I promptly had it bent to 1*flat. Make of that what you will.
obviously this is true in theory - although mitigated by cambered soles and dependent on whether you're dragging the club through earth during impact. Then again, you don't choke down on the grip when hitting off a sideslope and the ball is below your feet, just to make the lie fit better with the ground contours.
I don't think that was my argument. Mostly, I'm just questioning the claimed benefits and especially the idea that a fitting to within a fraction of a degree is an urgent necessity for most players. I'm somewhat influenced by the fact that most sports that attract middle aged professional men evolve similar kinds of value offerings. It's a great business model in an era of chinese manufacturing and internet retailing.
faux_maestro
New
Standard lies between manufacturers differs. 1 degree upright from one company might be another companies standard.
birly-shirly
New
yes - but these were all from the same company
faux_maestro
New
Were they all Pings? I also know that at some point Ping made some changes to their color codes. They added a color on either side of "black" and hence changed what some of the color codes actual lie angle was. Also, though I don't think they admit to it, I feel like they changed what their standard lie angle is. I had some black dot eye2+ back in the 90's and they were perfect but every time I hit a demo of any of their new stuff I need a red or purple. I don't think I've changed that much but maybe. Just throwing that out there.
Color Code --> Old Lie Angle --> New Lie Angle
Maroon --> 5* Up --> 4.5* Up
Silver --> 4* Up --> 3.75* Up
White --> 3* Up (no Change)
Green --> 2* Up --> 2.25* Up
Yellow --> New Code 1.5* Up
Blue --> 1* Up --> .75* Up
Black --> Standard (No Change)
Red --> 1* Flat --> .75* Flat
Purple --> New Code 1.5* Flat
Orange --> 2* Flat --> 2.25* Flat
Brown --> 3* Flat (No Change)
Gold --> 4* Flat --> 3.75* Flat
faux_maestro
New
Also, as far as the "how much does the lie angle matter" stuff, I don't know about anyone else but I think I can tell when a club one degree off. Maybe I'm crazy but I notice the difference from one color code on a ping iron. I might not be able to tell you which direction it is off but I can usually feel it.
I would rather have a club that fits my swing OR what I'm trying to do with my swing than have something that doesn't.
I would rather have a club that fits my swing OR what I'm trying to do with my swing than have something that doesn't.
birly-shirly
New
re the pings - you're right, but the effect in my case is to make the difference between my red dots and my newer black dots a bit more than 1*, rather than less.
I think it's quite feasible to feel a difference of a degree or two at address. But then conventional wisdom, as I heard it, was to have irons a little toe-up at address anyway - rather than perfectly flush to the ground. The more important justification for lie angle fitting is surely how lie adjustments affect ballflight. My thinking is that variations in impact geometry due to changes in lie angle are fairly minor, especially relative to the average golfer's clubface control and variation in shotmaking conditions.
I think it's quite feasible to feel a difference of a degree or two at address. But then conventional wisdom, as I heard it, was to have irons a little toe-up at address anyway - rather than perfectly flush to the ground. The more important justification for lie angle fitting is surely how lie adjustments affect ballflight. My thinking is that variations in impact geometry due to changes in lie angle are fairly minor, especially relative to the average golfer's clubface control and variation in shotmaking conditions.
magicmarker
New
why did you promptly have it bent a degree flat?
it is obviously true in more than theory, mitigated or not.
no, but you could. and/or just shift the d-plane you envision for the shot.
definitely NOT an urgent necessity for MOST players.......but if someone is making a fairly consistent pass at the ball, the tool that best fits the equation will win out over time, and provide more positive reinforcement.
and then you lost me...
it is obviously true in more than theory, mitigated or not.
no, but you could. and/or just shift the d-plane you envision for the shot.
definitely NOT an urgent necessity for MOST players.......but if someone is making a fairly consistent pass at the ball, the tool that best fits the equation will win out over time, and provide more positive reinforcement.
and then you lost me...
magicmarker
New
agree faux
the FEEL is really where I can tell as well. When it's right you know, it is like hitting off carpet.
the FEEL is really where I can tell as well. When it's right you know, it is like hitting off carpet.
birly-shirly
New
sorry if I wasn't clear - I had the wedge bent a total of 3 (or maybe 4) degrees flatter. the club ended up as a ping red dot - or 1 degree flatter than std.
I think it very much depends. Factor in angle of attack, shaft lean, sole design, turf conditions and vertical impact on the face and it's not obvious to me how much the club will twist, if at all. For all I know, well-struck iron shots might be practically immune to that sort of twisting because the ball has left the face before the sole of the club has experienced a meaningful interaction with the ground.
I think you always end up doing the latter - or allowing for the curve. All I'm saying there is that adjustments for terrain is a bigger deal than a perfectly adjusted lie angle.
of course. "best" is better than "not so good". But what I'm interested in is quantifying the difference. Fortunately, there's a ready supply of punters willing to part with their cash for anything that can be described as "the best" regardless of whether they can discern the difference.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
I have 2 Ping S58 7 irons, one a black dot standard lie and another that is a purple dot 1.5* lie which is my gamer. I couldn't keep the black dot on the planet unless i put a very large "cut" style swing on it. The purple dot is a nice soft draw for me as my stock shot.
birly-shirly
New
Jim - from your experience of trackman data, could you estimate the face/path relationship on a "well fitting" iron that would typically give the sort of hook you see with the std lie?
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Sorry I can't. Don't have that info.
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