LPGA vs. PGA releases

[DCgolf]

I've always believed it's why a lot of ladies (and Jones) come up on their toes. To create room. If line up is before left shoulder there has to be a posture adjustment to allow for it it seems. Conversely it seems like very late line up requires some sitting.

 

[SteveT]

At the moment of impact, the lead arm and clubshaft may instantaneously align, except for Sadlowski who is a special case.

Or it does not, as we can clearly see from the photo's above. Its not that you "can't" have it align, its whether having it "line up" later like a David Toms is a better way to have power and control.

All 4 photos are "pre-impact" and not representative of what actually happens at impact. Since impact is measured in micro-seconds, you may not see the instantaneous alignment of arm and shaft on videos. This is the problem with looking at videos and pictures... as Brian has pointed out so often.

Analyzing such pics is somewhat regressive in light of the scientific advances being made on this forum.

 

[gmbtempe]

All 4 photos are "pre-impact" and not representative of what actually happens at impact. Since impact is measured in micro-seconds, you may not see the instantaneous alignment of arm and shaft on videos. This is the problem with looking at videos and pictures... as Brian has pointed out so often.

Analyzing such pics is somewhat regressive in light of the scientific advances being made on this forum.

works well enough for my simple mind.

I went into Golfsmith the other day and asked to get on the MATT or ENSO machine to verify my swing and they all looked at me funny.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Absolutely GREAT THREAD.

Good job by all.

Here are sone comments by me:

Could it be due to that the long hitters needs to line-up the club later to be able to have an upward strike with a delofted head to get their ideal launch angle and spin rate.

That is THE reason.

Joe Miller hits it just as long, if not longer than Sadlowski and Zuback.

yup.

Todd, curious as to why you use the 2D double pendulum model so much. It's so incomplete.

It is great for some things, but to totally poor for others.

Long live Wild Bill.

I hear ya!

Honestly, im just curious, Greg. How can you not be a fan if you've never studied it?

Great question.

The key to this is not physics, it is biology.

The danger is teachers will try to make people play in ways that are physically beyond them to match some alleged 'great ballstriker' position.

100+++

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Ha.

Wish I had a dollar for every non-Hoganesque physique I've seen being put into Hoganesque positions on the practice tee.

You'd have more $$$ than Buffet.

If you have a poor pivot and your hands/arms are not in the correct position then you are left with no choice but to slap at the ball, or roll through the shot.

No.

I have to correct you...

Here is how your statement SHOULD read:

"If you have a pivot that faces the ball more at impact, it can be a very effective pivot, and will result in arms that swing more across the chest earlier, and a clubhead that passes the hands sooner."

works well enough for my simple mind.

I went into Golfsmith the other day and asked to get on the MATT or ENSO machine to verify my swing and they all looked at me funny.

I can top that...

I went in to Edwin Watts yesterday, and I asked them id the r.i.p. shaft would be better for a golfer with more early Beta torque or one with less gamma, and they froze silent with a puppy dog look on their face.....






....they are still there—befuddled.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Well, I was responding to Todd's post below:



The fact is, not all long hitters line the club up late like Todd says.

And not everyone who lines it up late is more accurate either.

Got me with that guy. I usually use the word "virtually" before "all" to cover myself for the odd person who breaks the rule. And there's always one. But obviously, that type of release is very unusual for a long hitter.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Todd, curious as to why you use the 2D double pendulum model so much. It's so incomplete.

I'll let Dr. Zick answer for me............

“as simple as this two pendulum system may seem, you can use it to almost perfectly describe a real golf swing of a good golfer”

This thread is about asking the question WHY do stronger players typically line-up the club later, rarely before the left shoulder. I don't claim to fully understand why, but there is no doubt that the tendency is strong.

 

[SteveT]

Going back to biology. Compared to males, females have a pelvis that is wider and more circular, resulting in a forward tilt in the top of the pelvis (or so I have been told). Is it possible that this makes it harder for females to rotate their hips such that they instead release their upper body earlier in the kinetic chain?

Congratulation on your 4th posting... you got it right and you graduate from "Junior Member" to "Junior Golf Scientist"....

A wide hip mass can be difficult to control within the kinetic chain because of the larger momentum generated; so hip rotation is reduced to a manageable level and upper body rotation can get forced. And yes, a woman's wider hips has a greater "pelvic tilt" than a man's pelvic structure which also puts a "kink" in the kinetic chain.

The same think happens with pot bellies on male pro golfers... they keep their lower body relatively quiet to avoid pot belly momentum and instead use the mechanical advantage of their powerful upper body to swing hard, e.g. Carl Pettersson.

 

[spktho]

Seems that ball position(club selection) and as mentioned earlier angle of attack are factors, especially when looking at iron swings due to club-ground contact.

 

[gmbtempe]

"If you have a pivot that faces the ball more at impact, it can be a very effective pivot, and will result in arms that swing more across the chest earlier, and a clubhead that passes the hands sooner."
.

Doesn't this describe my swing already?

 

[SteveT]

"If you have a pivot that faces the ball more at impact, it can be a very effective pivot, and will result in arms that swing more across the chest earlier, and a clubhead that passes the hands sooner."

Brian... I agree it can be an effective pivot provided that the shoulder rotation is not blocking, and rotation essentially stalls. I have seen duffers stop their pivot and then fling their arms and club at the ball in desperation to hit it.

My question is what is the most efficient way to "go normal" in final release... a shoulder pivot that is square to the ball and arms swinging across the chest earlier, or, a shoulder pivot that has just cleared the ball and the lead arm is being pulled through impact by the lead shoulder?

 

[gmbtempe]

Brian... I agree it can be an effective pivot provided that the shoulder rotation is not blocking, and rotation essentially stalls. I have seen duffers stop their pivot and then fling their arms and club at the ball in desperation to hit it.

My question is what is the most efficient way to "go normal" in final release... a shoulder pivot that is square to the ball and arms swinging across the chest earlier, or, a shoulder pivot that has just cleared the ball and the lead arm is being pulled through impact by the lead shoulder?

You said: Brian... I agree it can be an effective pivot provided that the shoulder rotation is not blocking, and rotation essentially stalls. I have seen duffers stop their pivot and then fling their arms and club at the ball in desperation to hit it.

Completely agree, I see this all the time, especially with the better player who gets inside and under on the downswing, myself included. The thing is my swing fits impact positions that BM's is advocating (couple point moving up, flat wrist at impact but club lines up quicker so you have a non TGM "look"). I HATE pivot stall.

You asked : My question is what is the most efficient way to "go normal" in final release

I think its clearly getting the club to line up later like DJ, Bubba, Hogan, Toms, Trevino......how it gets there is disputable/variable.

You asked: a shoulder pivot that is square to the ball and arms swinging across the chest earlier, or, a shoulder pivot that has just cleared the ball and the lead arm is being pulled through impact by the lead shoulder?

I don't like the first one, seems dangerously inconsistent, begs for pivot stall, shoulder stall. I also don't think its much of a pulling action, maybe push pull but the "blast off the chest" TGM ideas are vague and not realistic.

 

[Frans@France]

This is what Ralph Maltby had to say

"Ralph Maltby has been designing and evaluating golf equipment for more than 40 years. He is universally regarded as one of the premier golf equipment experts in the world."

Link: Women's Iron Design Characteristics

 

[Kevin Shields]

Brian... I agree it can be an effective pivot provided that the shoulder rotation is not blocking, and rotation essentially stalls. I have seen duffers stop their pivot and then fling their arms and club at the ball in desperation to hit it.

My question is what is the most efficient way to "go normal" in final release... a shoulder pivot that is square to the ball and arms swinging across the chest earlier, or, a shoulder pivot that has just cleared the ball and the lead arm is being pulled through impact by the lead shoulder?

You've seen those duffers do that for other reasons, one of which is that they wait to long to hit it or don't have any "out of hand plane" force on the club to hit with. Not saying that many duffers don't have an effective pivot, however.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Doesn't this describe my swing already?

Not in the least. Isn't your problem a slide (not an effective pivot) and arms that stay on one side of your body too long and dump the club?

 

[Kevin Shields]

works well enough for my simple mind.

I went into Golfsmith the other day and asked to get on the MATT or ENSO machine to verify my swing and they all looked at me funny.

Golfsmith has Enso? Wow.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Is this a hip stall, the new reason for everything wrong in the golf swing? Maybe we can get a hip stall charged with the Kennedy assassination? Or put up 3 year old videos of me and admire mine?

 

[islandgolf629]

Is this a hip stall, the new reason for everything wrong in the golf swing? Maybe we can get a hip stall charged with the Kennedy assassination? Or put up 3 year old videos of me and admire mine?

More than a hip stall is wrong with that picture.

 

[BrendanC]

Guys - here are some crude calculations.

Reminder: we are being asked to believe that some technical inferiority leads to these women players to be shorter than the men and that they would do better if they lined the club up like the men.

Average Driving Distance:

Men (Top 5 PGA Tour): 307.2m
Women (Top 5 LPGA Tour): 274.6m

Weightlifting (world records):

Men 62kg: 242kg (total)
Women: 63kg: 325kg (total)

Edit: NB the 'total' category is made up of two lifts! H/T Frans@France

Sprinting (world records):
Men 200m: 19.19s
Women 200m: 21.34s

Men 400m: 43.18
Women 400m: 47.60

Weighlifting: Women approx 80% as good where men = 100%
Sprinting: Women approx 90% as good where men = 100%
Driving Golf Balls: Women approx 90% as good where men = 100%

 

[gmbtempe]

Not in the least. Isn't your problem a slide (not an effective pivot) and arms that stay on one side of your body too long and dump the club?

of course, but man I am facing the ball the club head sure is pretty at impact, but not long after!

If I had my druthers I would be facing the target at impact rather than be late with the arms/pivot.

 

[gmbtempe]

last weeks winner