Brian Manzella
Administrator
[media]http://homepage.mac.com/brianmanzella/.Music/moeshifts.mp3[/media]
Moe Norman Swing Analysis by Brian Manzella (with Audio)
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
- Start date
- Status
[media]http://homepage.mac.com/brianmanzella/.Music/moeshifts.mp3[/media]
self-mastery
New
How far could Moe have driven the ball in his prime with todays technology?
cmartingolf
New
I'd say Moe could move the club about 112 - 115 mph. Since he hit it on the button (as I've witnessed 1000+ times) and his launch conditions were perfect. He'd fly it 265+ at sea level and take whatever the ground gave him.
He was a really strong guy. His hands were freakish.
He was a really strong guy. His hands were freakish.
Chris Sturgess
New member
Brian, why do you prefer an arcing plane shift backswing that comes from below the elbow plane to above it, instead of a swing that never gets below the elbow plane but still gets to the turned shoulder plane at the top? I am currently under the impression that it doesn't matter as long as you get to a decent postion at the top.
What I think is a little bit interesting to note in Moe Norman's swing is that he takes it back inside and arcs it to the top (which basically all old school players used to do, Nicklaus, Palmer, Snead, etc) and then comes down a little over that which by the time he's in the hitting area is back to the elbow plane. But then his followthrough is relatively upright, going from the elbow plane at impact to the shoulder plane to well above the shoulder plane. Most people who have a steeper downswing plane than their backswing plane will tend to swing more left into the followthrough along the elbow plane and to a flatter finish. But not Moe, he does the opposite.
What I think is a little bit interesting to note in Moe Norman's swing is that he takes it back inside and arcs it to the top (which basically all old school players used to do, Nicklaus, Palmer, Snead, etc) and then comes down a little over that which by the time he's in the hitting area is back to the elbow plane. But then his followthrough is relatively upright, going from the elbow plane at impact to the shoulder plane to well above the shoulder plane. Most people who have a steeper downswing plane than their backswing plane will tend to swing more left into the followthrough along the elbow plane and to a flatter finish. But not Moe, he does the opposite.
Chris Sturgess
New member
I just thought of something pretty funny, does Allen Doyle swing like this too? I am reminded of his swing from this. You should do a quick look at his swing too, such a different looking action but yet he knocks down flagsticks too.
David Alford
New
I don't think Moe Norman's hands were feakishly strong. Nor do I think he was a superman. I'm aware he supposedly held a golfing partner in the air by his ankles. I'd say, overall, he was stronger than most. But I doubt he would've come close to winning a strength competiton even in his prime.
Nor do I think his clubhead speed was 112-115 mph (Todd Graves told me it was around 107 mph).
Unlike some people who are fond of attacking "Natural Golf" and the Moe Norman swing I know for a FACT it is accessible. The problem is how some people are teaching it (e.g., Natural Golf, in my OPINION). Folks, if your Moe Norman golf instructor can't hit the ball like Moe (or close to that standard), he doesn't know it (exceptions for age or health issues)!
We have an additional difficulty in how Moe described his swing. Pretty maddening. All of this should have been solved years and years ago. There should be NO mysteries to any golf swing pattern.
That probably should do for now.
Nor do I think his clubhead speed was 112-115 mph (Todd Graves told me it was around 107 mph).
Unlike some people who are fond of attacking "Natural Golf" and the Moe Norman swing I know for a FACT it is accessible. The problem is how some people are teaching it (e.g., Natural Golf, in my OPINION). Folks, if your Moe Norman golf instructor can't hit the ball like Moe (or close to that standard), he doesn't know it (exceptions for age or health issues)!
We have an additional difficulty in how Moe described his swing. Pretty maddening. All of this should have been solved years and years ago. There should be NO mysteries to any golf swing pattern.
That probably should do for now.
David Alford
New
Having just listened to audio, Brian's comments here are 100% accurate. Going from a discussion to actually doing this pattern, other things of course would be emphasized.
jimmyt
New
I think the point that we need to walk away from this analysis is that the swing was sound and his address position and finish position were his preferences.
If he did have an in the palms grip that would account for the accuracy and would also explain the lower club head speed. One point that we must not forget and Brian touched on it some of what Moe did may have been because of the terets/OCD. He may have gripped the club a certain way because thats the only way his nervous system would allow him too.
When you discuss Moe you can never forget that fact, he may have done it a certain way just because.......
If he did have an in the palms grip that would account for the accuracy and would also explain the lower club head speed. One point that we must not forget and Brian touched on it some of what Moe did may have been because of the terets/OCD. He may have gripped the club a certain way because thats the only way his nervous system would allow him too.
When you discuss Moe you can never forget that fact, he may have done it a certain way just because.......
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Best Moe story ever....
Moe this is a driver, 9 iron hole.
Ya, ok.
Tees off with 9 iron, hits driver off the fairway to like 10 feet.
Moe this is a driver, 9 iron hole.
Ya, ok.
Tees off with 9 iron, hits driver off the fairway to like 10 feet.
birdie_man
New
I for sure would think he could get it out there. I saw some video of him and it actually looked pretty dynamic. This was when he was older than 50 for sure too. (not sure exactly how old)
Obviously he is no Daly but I think he could get it out there.
Another Moe story, from his bio, I don't have the book handy but here it is, from memory:
Moe had a photographic memory for every golf course he ever played in his life. If someone mentioned a course Moe played once 17 years ago, he would rattle off the holes and distances like he had played it the day before.
Late in life, Moe had an accident and wound up in a hospital near London, Ontario. When he came awake in his hospital room the Doctors asked him if he knew where he was. Moe replied, "I'm on the 7th tee". The Docs thought Moe's mind was gone, that he was spouting jibberish. But it turned out the hospital was built on a golf course Moe played when he was young. The golf course was long gone, but the hospital room where Moe came awake was located on the spot where once lay the tee box of hole #7.
...
Mo wasn't overly long birdie...7-iron 140..
Apparently Luke Donald hits his PW that far....
Mo wasn't overly long birdie...7-iron 140..
Apparently Luke Donald hits his PW that far....
David Alford
New
Sweetser, that's a great story. Thanks.
HOT CHILLI
New
Moe Norman
Moe Norman Swing Video -
Moe Norman: My way
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDCC-1-41-1705-11706/sports/canadian_golfers/
Moe Norman, 1929 - 2004
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDCC-1-41-1705-11754/sports/canadian_golfers/
Moe Norman Swing Video -
Moe Norman: My way
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDCC-1-41-1705-11706/sports/canadian_golfers/
Moe Norman, 1929 - 2004
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDCC-1-41-1705-11754/sports/canadian_golfers/
Glad you liked, David. And thanks to Brian for the terrific analysis of Moe's swing.
cmartingolf
New
"I don't think Moe Norman's hands were freakishly strong."
David, thinking and knowing are two different things. Moe's hands were freakishly strong.
I stand corrected on the MPH as Todd Graves would have better insight than me, although my first experience watching Moe took place in 1976. I'm not certain Todd knew him in those days.
I've watched Moe hit countless drivers. He was not short and Todd's description of 106 mph +/- equates to roughly 265 carry as the balls I watched flew nicely over the 250 sign
Have a good day.
David, thinking and knowing are two different things. Moe's hands were freakishly strong.
I stand corrected on the MPH as Todd Graves would have better insight than me, although my first experience watching Moe took place in 1976. I'm not certain Todd knew him in those days.
I've watched Moe hit countless drivers. He was not short and Todd's description of 106 mph +/- equates to roughly 265 carry as the balls I watched flew nicely over the 250 sign
Have a good day.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
"I don't think Moe Norman's hands were freakishly strong."
David, thinking and knowing are two different things. Moe's hands were freakishly strong.
I stand corrected on the MPH as Todd Graves would have better insight than me, although my first experience watching Moe took place in 1976. I'm not certain Todd knew him in those days.
I've watched Moe hit countless drivers. He was not short and Todd's description of 106 mph +/- equates to roughly 265 carry as the balls I watched flew nicely over the 250 sign
Have a good day.
I would bet it to be over 106mph because with optinmum conditions with TODAY'S TECHNOLOGY (ball and driver) a 265 yard carry on a 106mph swing speed is basically the limit (106 x 2.5 = 265). So he was probably swinging a few mph more in reality at his peak.
- Status