Moe Norman Swing Analysis by Brian Manzella (with Audio)

[birdie_man]

The problem with this swing for Pros is distance. It's not a weak swing by any means. But the tour is now a power game. I've got Moe on tape admitting to stay competitive on the new tour courses he would have to go to a severe draw & he didn't want to play that way. That said, a lot of golfers could see their distance improve if they used this pattern correctly. The avg. golfer is no where near "flying the ball 250". Hit the ball on the button at just 85-90 mph and it will get out there pretty good.

Maybe he was talking about competing at that point in time?.....i.e. whenever he was on that tape.

I just really can't see him in his prime being that painfully short that he couldn't compete on the big tour.

You never know with this guy too.....the way he was socially..........I mean.....golf ability aside he could very well not have played well on the big tour just due to the added pressure and exposure and attention.

I'm not the first to say this either....there's stories about him hiding from trophy ceremonies and tanking tournaments and not showing up and all kinds of stuff. Not to mention just the fact itself of him using golf as an escape (and to the extreme degree he did) from these social problems. Dude had problems and you have to think it was to a pretty large degree to drive you to do these kind of things. His curse that he channeled into his golf and becoming a very skilled golfer I guess eh.

 

[birdie_man]

btw, there is a Moe tape showing his driver dispersal from the landing area & it is about 20-25yds. Quite a few of the balls are landing more tightly than total dispersal, though. But certainly not all in a 5 or 10 yd. circle. They would all be in a normal fairway.

20-25 is pretty good but maybe he could have been hitting draws and fades.

Not trying to make excuses but it's possible unless you know better.

 

[birdie_man]

Sorry, but all this stuff about his being a genius savant, freakishly strong hands, etc. had nothing to do with his ball striking. Look for the reasons elsewhere and you will be closer to the truth.

So you don't think all this stuff (any of the traits commonly attributed to his success) could've had something to do with him being able to repeat as per Brian's audio?

David I will say I like the way you think with regards to taking a back seat to no one and I truly respect that and more people should think along these lines...........but I will say:

If talent has little to do with it (correct me if I put words in your mouth) and you can replicate his swing fairly accurately (correct me again if I'm wrong) then you yourself should be ABLE to hit (or at least at this point CAPABLE of hitting) with MoeISH accuracy, no?

Hear me out I'm trying to be fair. (and that is fair)

 

[birdie_man]

K I'm going on a post bender here......

But anyone know how he was at putting? I know he was fast and apparently would putt under peoples outstretched arms while they marked their balls.

Also....anyone know about his equipment?

 

[puttmad]

I have him on tape birdie....must be in his 60's....

 

[sweetser]

So you don't think all this stuff (any of the traits commonly attributed to his success) could've had something to do with him being able to repeat as per Brian's audio?

I think the way Moe was wired had a lot to do with how he could hit a golf ball. He was the most target-oriented golfer ever but not in a conscious fashion, he would acquire the target in one look and then pop. He could blanket a target rapid-fire with hundreds of balls hit in succession, but a blind shot was a different story. A blind shot would drive him nuts. If Moe couldn't visually acquire his target he would become agitated and struggle. A psychologist could better evaluate this stuff, but Moe's gift was singular IMO and had to do with more than his method of swinging the club.

 

[David Alford]

David, I can't stand your posts which always imply you know something that a lot of us don't. No, that doesn't annoy me. What does is you never clearly explain to us why you are so superior and what you know that we don't. Maybe you enjoy this?

Swing knowledge does NOT make you a superior person. It indicates you know something about a particular subject. As far as the golf swing, it almost certainly indicates you've paid a heavy price. A very heavy price in my case because I wasn't as smart as I thought.

So I don't feel superior to anyone, including a duffer. A duffer, afterall, might have expert knowledge in many other areas. I do have confidence I can demonstrate very good ball striking with this swing. And I KNOW hand strength is virtually irrelevant. If someone had claimed Moe must have had a really strong left deltoid and left latisimus dorsi I wouldn't have objected one bit.

 

[David Alford]

QUOTE=birdie_man;107810]So you don't think all this stuff (any of the traits commonly attributed to his success) could've had something to do with him being able to repeat as per Brian's audio?

David I will say I like the way you think with regards to taking a back seat to no one and I truly respect that and more people should think along these lines...........but I will say:

If talent has little to do with it (correct me if I put words in your mouth) and you can replicate his swing fairly accurately (correct me again if I'm wrong) then you yourself should be ABLE to hit, and at this point fairly CAPABLE of hitting, with MoeISH accuracy, no?

Hear me out I'm trying to be fair. (and that is fair)[/QUOTE]

No worries. My argument Moe didn't have any singular talents as in superhuman strength, coordination, or special mental abilities that were key to his golf swing is a very simple one.

Namely, Todd Graves probably hits the ball as well & perhaps farther than Moe did. Moe thought he did, too. Years ago, I pointed asked Todd if he was as good a ball striker and he softly said "yes". And what I observed doesn't contradict these contentions. Now given that, I suggest a person ought to STOP the hero worship and get to work on what Moe actually did...

This confirms my belief and gives me the confidence to post what I have (yes, I can demonstrate). Concentrate on what Moe actually did and forget all the hype.

Moe Norman's achievements were great, I'm not saying otherwise. God bless human individuality!

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Bottom line?

Moe was special and knew how to put the ball in the hole:

- 17 holes in one
- 9 double eagles
- won more than 50 tournaments
- set over 40 course records
- scored 59 3 times in tournament play

So there ya go, this was pieced together through a few various sources. I don't care who thinks they can hit it as good as moe or how much they can copy his swing.

If anyone thinks they are as good as moe, then they better start trying to break HIS records.

 

[birdie_man]

I think the way Moe was wired had a lot to do with how he could hit a golf ball. He was the most target-oriented golfer ever but not in a conscious fashion, he would acquire the target in one look and then pop. He could blanket a target rapid-fire with hundreds of balls hit in succession, but a blind shot was a different story. A blind shot would drive him nuts. If Moe couldn't visually acquire his target he would become agitated and struggle. A psychologist could better evaluate this stuff, but Moe's gift was singular IMO and had to do with more than his method of swinging the club.

That's very interesting. I've never heard about this blind shot thing.

I do know that 2 of the last points (including the very last) on his "golf thoughts" letter (assuming it is his) say that imagination and visualization are his "keys to success."

Here: http://www.caddybytes.com/Moe_Norman_swing_thoughts.htm

 

[David Alford]

Well, is the subject his golf swing or his career achievements?

 

[birdie_man]

This confirms my belief and gives me the confidence to post what I have (yes, I can demonstrate). Concentrate on what Moe actually did and forget all the hype.

You right......it's fun to analyze but in the end if u want to be good you need to get down to business and that's basically the bottom line. You don't know until you try right....best to figure it out for yourself I figure.

 

[David Alford]

Here's another interesting point. I knew Todd had a few lessons with Mac O'Grady at one point. I asked him who was the better ball striker. After a very long pause, Todd said "they would both be about the same". Todd was not a particular fan of Mac. He certainly was a huge fan of Moe. His objectivity impressed me greatly.

Now to your point, Jim...we could compare the career wins, etc. of Mac. vs. Moe. Obviously tour wins is a different subject than the golf swing.

 

[David Alford]

<You right......it's fun to analyze but in the end if u want to be good you need to get down to business and that's basically the bottom line. You don't know until you try right....best to figure it out for yourself I figure.>

It would be quicker to have an instructor who knows it and can explain it so you can learn it. Golf instruction is getting better all the time; for example, many of the topics in these forums are head and shoulders above what one could find just 10 yrs. ago. Unfortunately, there is still a gap in "getting it" for one's self, but perhaps that gap is narrowing.

You are correct in implying that analysis is different from doing. Only doing is doing. The objective judge is not what I say or anyone else says, it's Mr. Golf Ball. You can trust in his/her/its Honesty.

 

[birdie_man]

<You right......it's fun to analyze but in the end if u want to be good you need to get down to business and that's basically the bottom line. You don't know until you try right....best to figure it out for yourself I figure.>

It would be quicker to have an instructor who knows it and can explain it so you can learn it. Golf instruction is getting better all the time; for example, many of the topics in these forums are head and shoulders above what one could find just 10 yrs. ago. Unfortunately, there is still a gap in "getting it" for one's self, but perhaps that gap is narrowing.

You are correct in implying that analysis is different from doing. Only doing is doing. The objective judge is not what I say or anyone else says, it's Mr. Golf Ball. You can trust in his/her/its Honesty.

Very true. BTW I meant figuring out for yourself what you're capable of. (as in not giving up) I do think seeing good instructors is the thing to do. (would make it a lot easier for me no doubt but I am isolated up here...closest thing to KY here is KY Fried )

 

[cmartingolf]

QUOTE=birdie_man;107810]
Namely, Todd Graves probably hits the ball as well & perhaps farther than Moe did. Moe thought he did, too. Years ago, I pointed asked Todd if he was as good a ball striker and he softly said "yes". And what I observed doesn't contradict these contentions. Now given that, I suggest a person ought to STOP the hero worship and get to work on what Moe actually did...

This confirms my belief and gives me the confidence to post what I have (yes, I can demonstrate). Concentrate on what Moe actually did and forget all the hype.

Moe Norman's achievements were great, I'm not saying otherwise. God bless human individuality!

David, I don't know you. I like the way you stir the pot and your threads are fun. You do manage to get me fired up. Good for you.

On the subject of Moe:

Todd Graves = Moe in any way? None.....

Todd was a decent player like the thousands (including myself) that couldn't REALLY play. The guys that really play, really play, shoot 59's, set multiple course records and win dozens of times against good player. Hmmm, sounds like Moe?

Sure he was a different kind of bird. No doubt about it.

Moe's Hands? Freakishly strong. Hold a wedge in a vertical manner at the grip between your index finger and middle finger and take the club to parallel. Good luck. I heard Gary Player could do this. Moe did it all the time. That is freakish. Try it.

Did it help him hit it pure? Damn right, cause if you are really strong, you don't have to hold on very tight and you don't fatigue as easily. Should you hit it in the crap (not that he did), it sure helps. That's why the last 10% of the Men's Tour is better than the best 10% of the women's tour at hitting it close from around the green.

Regarding Mac? Wonderful striker. I've met him a couple of times. He's always been kind to me and I've hit balls with him once briefly. It is pretty darn good. He couldn't hold Moe's jock strap regarding ball striking.

Besides Hogan, how many times would the best players in the world gather around and watch a guy hit balls??? They did with MOE!

Anyhow, keep up the pot stirring. Good fun.

 

[sweetser]

Regarding Mac? Wonderful striker. I've met him a couple of times. He's always been kind to me and I've hit balls with him once briefly. It is pretty darn good. He couldn't hold Moe's jock strap regarding ball striking.

LOL. Kinda felt that one coming.

 

[sweetser]

That's very interesting. I've never heard about this blind shot thing.

I do know that 2 of the last points (including the very last) on his "golf thoughts" letter (assuming it is his) say that imagination and visualization are his "keys to success."

Here: http://www.caddybytes.com/Moe_Norman_swing_thoughts.htm

That's a great list, thanks for sharing. I'm sure Moe did visualize but when he was at it, it was one look and pop... I know this is a golf forum and the talk naturally (and properly) centers around mechanics and the like, but with Moe I have a tough time separating his personality, his challenges, from his swing and accomplishments. The list is poignant, to me, because it reflects Moe's deep insecurities, he read self-help books almost exclusively and was always tried to overcome his shyness and gain self-confidence. The blind shot business comes from a piece by golf writer Lorne Rubenstein, who knew Moe pretty well and played the occasional round with him. Rubenstein observed Moe sailing along during in a round when, on a couple of occasions, he faced a blind shot and became extremely agitated. He would pace around and curse and be unable to swing in his normal manner. Unable to locate the target visually, Moe could not execute. For me this is a fascinating detail.

Rubenstein also wrote of a golf function where, in the chow line, he was talking to George Knudson. Knudson was talking to Rubenstein about how great Moe was. They turned round and found Moe in tears. He was listening and was overcome, he could not believe that Knudson would speak so highly of him.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Well, is the subject his golf swing or his career achievements?

They tend to be one in the same if you can putt halfway decent. There is a correlation between the two. All i'm saying is that if people are going to compare themselves to superior ballstrikers (not just immitaters of certain patterns) then they should be out winning tournaments or setting their own records.

A lot of people can produce superior painting forgeries, but they usually can't create timeless art.

 

[David Alford]

There is a correlation, but far, far from a perfect one if you can't putt. Mac couldn't putt halfway decent.

I will agree Todd Graves has not come close to Moe's records and play over 40 yrs. etc. but has he finally reached that level of ball striking? I'll take Moe's word for it. Comparatively, Moe made jokes about Cory Pavin and Paul Azinger's ball striking; but remarked Todd and himself had the best swings in the world.

As far as golf swing forgeries, etc. who cares? The swing's the thing and if you got it, you got it, doesn't matter when you learned it from one master or a bunch of different teachers or even on your own. Invariably, individualization takes place to some degree.

One of the greatest secrets of our time is that success can be modeled. If you're so aghast at that concept, quit the forum, stop learning from others and do your own thing entirely.

Personally, I think Todd's swing looks a lot better than Moe's, but in large part that is because Todd has a better physique. Don't know about his finger strength...