Moe Norman Swing Analysis by Brian Manzella (with Audio)

[David Alford]

I doubt any of the champion long drivers have "freakishly" strong hands & I still seriously doubt Moe did. Many fans of Moe want to prescribe superhuman attributes to the Man. They are looking in the wrong place for the REASONS he was such a good ball striker. "The swings' the thing..."

Strong hands are fine, but it doesn't generate clubhead speed. Using Moe's pattern, I swing at about the same mph and get the same distance & my hands are relaxed as can be except for the last 3 fingers of the left hand where there is a slight gripping. The hand muscles are NOT being actively used. They're just for attachment and accuracy.

Here's a little more information. According to Jack K., Moe didn't fly the ball 265 yds. He told me 250 fly with typically a 20-25 yd. dispersal. Very good, but not "unbelievable" by hard standards. I'm sure Moe could drive the ball much farther under certain conditions, as any golfer can. Probably Hogan was a little longer (with "old" clubs), typically hitting most fairways where he wanted, but not every one, ALL the time.

The problem with this swing for Pros is distance. It's not a weak swing by any means. But the tour is now a power game. I've got Moe on tape admitting to stay competitive on the new tour courses he would have to go to a severe draw & he didn't want to play that way. That said, a lot of golfers could see their distance improve if they used this pattern correctly. The avg. golfer is no where near "flying the ball 250". Hit the ball on the button at just 85-90 mph and it will get out there pretty good.

Incidentally, it doesn't matter whether you use a conventional grip or the so called "Moe palm grip". The fact is, Moe did it both ways in his career & only changed to the palm grip late his career. IMO, the conventional grip is actually better for this swing, despite all the hoopla Natural Golf makes about the palm grip. Try it either way and see what you think.

 

[David Alford]

btw, there is a Moe tape showing his driver dispersal from the landing area & it is about 20-25yds. Quite a few of the balls are landing more tightly than total dispersal, though. But certainly not all in a 5 or 10 yd. circle. They would all be in a normal fairway.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Excuse my ignorance, but if Moe was such a great ballstriker why he didn't make a great career on the tour ? I know he won some here and there (as e.g. in Canada), but obviously he was too weak a golfer with his unique swing to compete with great PGA players of his time.
Were his shots too short ? Lack of good short game ? Horrible putting ?

Just curious.

 

[tank]

Moe Norman Swing Video -



Moe Norman: My way
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDCC-1-41-1705-11706/sports/canadian_golfers/

Moe Norman, 1929 - 2004
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDCC-1-41-1705-11754/sports/canadian_golfers/

Dariusz J.

Check out the links in the above post.

 

[mb6606]

Hollywood could make a great movie about Moe that the public would love.
What are they waiting for?

 

[Dariusz J.]

OK, got it. Mental issues. Slightly autistic, I presume.

But the next question is - why does noone (who is not autistic) play with such a swing successfully on tour today ?
Was it his unique swing that is biomechanically better than others or was it his 'brain' hitting straight balls ?
Was he theoretically able to hit same quality of shots with a different swing motion ?

I know there are no answers to my questions. But they are so obvious that I just felt obliged to write them down here...

Cheers

 

[sweetser]

Excuse my ignorance, but if Moe was such a great ballstriker why he didn't make a great career on the tour ? I know he won some here and there (as e.g. in Canada), but obviously he was too weak a golfer with his unique swing to compete with great PGA players of his time.
Were his shots too short ? Lack of good short game ? Horrible putting ?

Just curious.

The My Way documentary posted by Tank covers Moe well... when he was a boy he was hit by a car and dragged, he suffered head injuries and possibly neurological damage. It has also been posited that Moe was autistic, that he had Tourette's Syndrome... you have to look into his life and talent to realize how unique Moe was. Late in his life, broke and living mostly out of his car, Titliest CEO Wally Uihlein made a wonderful gesture in acknowledgment of what Moe has meant to the game. Uihlein offered to pay Moe $60,000 per year for the remainder of his life. Not a sponsorship deal, Moe got the money for just being Moe.

In regards to the movie, there is one in the works. The screenwriter is the scribe who wrote Rainman. After years of delays, last I looked, the project looks to be getting going. Dunno how it will turn out --- but Moe's life is one of the great human stories in all of sports.

 

[David Alford]

Sweetser, re: the movie, I heard Todd Graves was either advising or actually would star as Moe. I agree, along with the Hogan and Bobby Jones stories, this one is right up there. I think Uihlein's gesture should be part of the movie.

Moe won a lot in Canada, and that's worth something. He didn't win in the USA the few times he played and the criticisms he got from the US pros regarding his mannerisms, attire, etc. deeply hurt him and he retreated to back to Canada except for his winter forays to Florida.

 

[self-mastery]

Best ball striker doesn't always amount to being the best player.

 

[cmartingolf]

David, my point about strong hands has absolutely nothing to do with distance or how he swung a club. You obviously didn't know the man. I did.

 

[puttmad]

....

Best ball striker doesn't always amount to being the best player.

sm,

Check out a few of Mo's stats, course records, GIRs etc and I think you'll be amazed (hit 17 GIR's for a WHOLE season!)....

And don't forget, you have to be a good putter too....but we're talking about ballstriking. pure ballstriking....

 

[David Alford]

<David, my point about strong hands has absolutely nothing to do with distance or how he swung a club. You obviously didn't know the man. I did.>

I probably know more about his swing than you unless you can replicate his swing and accuracy to a considerable level. You're right, and that was my point, hand strength is not a factor. Sorry, but all this stuff about his being a genius savant, freakishly strong hands, etc. had nothing to do with his ball striking. Look for the reasons elsewhere and you will be closer to the truth.

 

[tongzilla]

David, I can't stand your posts which always imply you know something that a lot of us don't. No, that doesn't annoy me. What does is you never clearly explain to us why you are so superior and what you know that we don't. Maybe you enjoy this?

 

[David Alford]

puttmad, can you provide a link to those stats?

 

[sweetser]

David, my point about strong hands has absolutely nothing to do with distance or how he swung a club. You obviously didn't know the man. I did.

cmartingolf -- I didn't know Moe but I have a distant family connection, a great uncle of mine was a member at Rockway in Kitchener. As a boy I heard many stories and what I heard was that Moe's hands were indeed freakishly strong, tough as iron, black with calluses from hitting 600 balls a day. Apparently, Moe was fond of horseplay on occasion, as in a friendly tussle -- but his hands were so strong he would inadvertently hurt people, the members learned to smile and keep their distance.

 

[sweetser]

Best ball striker doesn't always amount to being the best player.

True. But the great ball-strikers have their own exalted status. A few years back when Tiger was working through swing changes, he said his goal was to "own his swing". Tiger then named Ben Hogan and Moe Norman as the only two players in history who have truly owned their swings.

 

[puttmad]

....

puttmad, can you provide a link to those stats?

No idea David, can't remember...
I have a couple of hours of Mo hitting ball on video...I think that stat was from Jack Kykendall (?) site.....

Here is a bit of info on him:

Moe Norman:
1). Moe and George Knudson use to practice together a lot. They did not putt. They just kept track of fairways hit, green hit in regulation, and flag sticks hit. It cost $20 every time you missed a fairway or a green and you received $100 for each flag stick hit. Moe hit 6 one day.

2). Moe has hit 3 flag sticks in a row, all outside a five iron.

3). In 1966 Moe played in 12 Canadian PGA Tournaments. He won five and he came in second five times. He averaged 17 (?) fairways and 17 greens in regulation. He had a scoring average of 68 strokes around, the lowest single year stroke average of any one to ever play the game.

4). In the 50's, Moe was practicing on the range when Ben Hogan was practicing. He asked Mr. Hogan if he would watch him hit some shots because he had heard that Mr. Hogan had said that a straight shot is an accident. Moe hit the first shot and said to Hogan, " There's an accident.". Moe hit the second shot and said, " There's another accident." After about 45 ball with same result, Mr. Hogan walked up to Moe and said, "Son, just keep hitting those accidents."

5). Moe has 17 holes in one.

6). Moe had 3 holes in one in one day. In the late 1950's, Moe would play 54 to 72 holes a day. One particular day including 54 holes, Moe had a hole in one each round, the longest being a 3 wood and the shortest a 6 iron.

7). One hole in one of note came after Moe had lost a tournament the week before with a four putt on the 18 hole. A reporter caught up with Moe on the 11 hole, 245 yard par 3. As Moe was about to hit, the reporter yelled out, "Hey, Moe, doing any 4 putting today." Moe hit his driver and turn around while the ball was still in the air and said, "Not putting today." The ball went into the hole.

7). Moe has over 40 course records, 3 with scores of 59 and 4 with scores of 61. He shot his last 59 at the age of 62 at the Rockway Golf Club in Kitchner, Ontario, Canada.

8). Moe has always entertained when he played golf. On one of the course records, he needed a par on the last hole to set the record. He had never played the course and asked the professional accompanying him what club should be used. The professional answered that is was usually a driver and a 9 iron. So, Moe hit the 9 iron first and then he hit the driver within 10 feet and sank the putt for a birdie.

9). In a round with Sam Snead, there was a hole that had a creek about 240 yard from the hole, and every one else laid up in front of the creek. Moe pulled out the driver and Snead said, " Moe you can't clear the creek with a driver." Moe replied, " Not trying to. I'm going across the bridge." The ball rolled across the bridge.

10). Lloyd Tucker was Moe's first instructor. He gave Moe a club and told him when he could hit it to let him know and he would take a look at his swing. When he first saw Moe swing, he did not try to change his swing. He warned Moe against others because his swing was different. Tucker recognized ball striking ability and did not mess with Moe mechanics.

11). Moe had a three shot lead going into the 18 hole of tournament. The other two players were discussing great sand players as they were walking up the 18 fairway and Moe's name was not mentioned. Moe's second shot was about 3 feet from the pin. When the players arrived on the green, Moe hit his ball into the trap, blasted to within 3 feet, sank the putt, won the tournament, and walked up to the other two players and said, " I'm the best sand player you've every seen and my name goes on the top of your list."

12). Moe, and many amateurs sold there prizes for money. Moe would sell the prizes before the tournament started. On five occasions, the person did not want first prize, but second prize. Moe came in second five times on purpose. He had to be one less than the winner and one better than third.

13). For practice, before the start of the tournament, at 6 A.M. in the morning, at Tomoka Oaks course in Daytona Beach, Moe hit six balls off the first tee. Ken Venning, a professional friend showed up soon after and saw that three balls were touching and three others were close by.

14). Moe turned 50 in 1979 and won the next seven Canadian Professional Golfer's Association senior championships. He came in 2nd in number 8 and won the 9th by 8 strokes.

MO NORMAN

Number of courses played: 434"
"Number of courses I can remember the exact hole yardages: 375"
"Age when I saw my first doctor: 68"
"Most balls hit in one day: 2,207"
"Total balls hit in my lifetime: About 5 million, not counting chips and putts."

"Hold the club in the palms, not the fingers. How do tennis players hold a tennis racket? In the palm. How do you hold a baseball bat? In the palms. Everyday items-an ax, a hammer-are held in the palms. They're the most sensitive parts of your body. Why would you want to hold a golf club in your fingers? It'll move all over the place!"
********************************************************************
Norman switched to his driver. Once again, the swing was the same. If you watched only his arms and hands, you wouldn't know that he wasn't still swinging his wedge. After hitting one ball, he would watch it a moment, then bend over and place another on the tee--and I mean place it. The tee never came out of the ground. In fact, it didn't move a millimeter.

"I hit balls, not tees," he explained.

On a driving range once, he hit 131 drives in a row from the same tee without having to straighten or adjust it. In tournaments, he sometimes entertained galleries by hitting drives from the mouth of the bottle of Coke he had just been drinking.

After he had been hitting drives awhile, a friend of his asked if he could try. The friend took Norman's driver and placed a ball on Norman's tee. The shot wasn't too bad, but the tee came out of the ground and tumbled into the long grass 20 feet ahead.
"Oh, dear, I loved that tee," Norman said wistfully. "I had it for seven years."

 

[Chris Sturgess]

David, my point about strong hands has absolutely nothing to do with distance or how he swung a club. You obviously didn't know the man. I did.

To be fair, you did make the strong hands comment right after you talked about how far he hit the ball and his clubhead speed so it seemed like you were relating the two.

 

[Chris Sturgess]

"Hold the club in the palms, not the fingers. How do tennis players hold a tennis racket? In the palm. How do you hold a baseball bat? In the palms. Everyday items-an ax, a hammer-are held in the palms. They're the most sensitive parts of your body. Why would you want to hold a golf club in your fingers? It'll move all over the place!"

All those facts and figures were great but this part here is really stupid. All of the examples are wrong. Nobody who knows how to use a hammer holds it in the palm, the same goes for a baseball bat, tennis racket, etc. If he likes holding a golf club in the palms to take the hands out of the swing like with a putt fine, maybe the accuracy gained is worth it. But let's not get silly and pretend you won't lose power and then come up with a bunch of bad examples.

 

[birdie_man]

Mo wasn't overly long birdie...7-iron 140..
Apparently Luke Donald hits his PW that far....

140...at what age?

BTW for the record (for the sake of this thread) he apparently was 75 when he died in 2004......

Not sure when he started getting recognition worldwide but that makes him 55 in 1984. It would be interesting to look at his stats in a "timeline" kind of way to see events/accomplishments corresponding with what age he was at the time.

I just suspect it is part of why people think he was short. I of course could be wrong.