Multiple D-Plane Topics

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think (know) that one of the most important skills of an accomplished ball striker is the ability to read ball flight and to make adjustments to the D Plane as required. In addition, understanding the relationship between clubface and swing path angles is paramount to developing shot shaping skills and/or developing the ability to hit the ball relatively “straight” or grooving a preferred shot shape (for players of all levels).

As a self-taught player, I read whatever I could get my hands on back in the mid-1970’s--Five Lessons, Golf My Way, etc. I’m not sure there was much more than that back in the day. Could have really used this Forum! I idolized Jack, but realized much later that a lot of the things he felt like he did in the swing were probably not exactly what he did. This is probably true for all great players who write instruction books/articles.

Early on, I thought Jack’s way of shaping shots was the simplest in theory (not necessarily the easiest in practice though). Anyway, I think it’s fairly common knowledge that he was using the “old” (incorrect) ball flight laws, and if he was really doing this the way he thought he was, it’s doubtful he would have had the record he did. So, how did this work/not work for him?

Recently, I read Clampett’s book. And, I’ll be darned that if in the section on Straight Plane Line, that he reveals a complete misconception of how the clubface and path work to make the ball do what it does. He too is convinced that path (alone) always determines the initial starting direction! Not comparing his record to Jack, but during the period in question he was probably the best amateur in the country. Personally, I think Clampett’s short game and putting from ten feet and in where what made him a world-class player, but his ball striking was still remarkable. (Especially in the first two rounds of the 1978 US Open). So, how did this work/not work for him?

The ball doesn’t lie.
 

jimmyt

New
I recnetly read Clampetts book as well and I had exactly the same take on it. I am very confused by this newly discovered and discussed "D" Plane.

Seems to me that the D plane discussion started as a topic on Brians live shows.....of which I have never seen or heard one.

So some clarification on the D Plane would be greatly appreciated. Have also done some searches through past discussions and they don't tell me how to D Plane
 

jimmyt

New
"D" Plane (yes again)

When this whole D Plane topic was started I was in the process of having right knee replacement surgery. My surgery was on 9-2-2008, when I finally rehabbed enough to sit at the computer again, we had a new concept and Brian's signature had changed so now I need to know what I missed while I was away.

I have just reviewed every thread that contains explanations, photos, examples of shots, forward shaft lean angle degrees, etc. on the "D" plane and I have to say I am more confused now than I have ever been.

With golf being such a mental game and a game that while you are playing you are supposed to be relaxed and tension free this concept scares the death out of me.

Brian ever since I have been hanging out at this forum I have purchased NSA and SD. My game has improved through this forum and videos, so when a concept is introduced I need to understand.

Please help and if people want to send messages to me privately please do so.

But since the D plane is embraced by Brian, mandarin, jim and the majority of this forums membership. I have come to the conclusion that it has been excepted because no one is asking questions about it anymore. So as a forum member and Manzella fan for about 1 1/2 years I want to embrace it as well.

Thanks Jim T
 

jimmyt

New
The old way to curve a ball seemed so much easier or at least I understood. You had club path, swing path and the desired ball flight just seemed easy.

Now you have forward shaft lean, aim 70-80 percent of the desired target and have certain angles to achieve, etc

I even read a post that asked Brian how to hit a 10 yard fade and the answer was so complicated aim 30 yards left no 15 yards left then have clubhead travel15 no 7.5 yards left of desired finish.

I just seem unable to grasp the concept
 

jimmyt

New
You read the post that has Mandrin's diagram and Brian's comments?

I know everyone who was looking at the diagram was so nice and thanked him for clearing things up, the whole diagram confused me even more.

Its actually frustrating me even more because I can't seem to get it
 
D-plane

I do not know if this helps or confuses but this is how I've understood D-plane (someone please correct if I'm wrong):

In geometric terms two lines in 3D space define a plane.
In case of D-plane, those two lines are (assuming that contact is made at sweetspot):

Line 1) the travel direction (true path) of the clubhead (sweetspot).
Path is curved, so it's the tangent of the curved path.
And of course, for most shots it points somewhat into the ground,
so, it cannot be drawn onto the ground.


Line 2) where the clubface is pointing (line perpendicular to the clubface)

Ball starts on this plane. Because ball starts somewhat lower than where the face points (dynamic loft), it also starts horizontally between where path is and where face points (if there is a difference between them).
Because start direction is vertically closer to where the face points to, it must also be horizontally the same proportion closer to where the face points to.

The bigger the vertical angle between the lines, the more backspin is generated. The more the plane tilts sideways from vertical, the more side spin is generated. Everything else being equal of course.

Forward lean comes into play because it changes club head true path. The more forward lean, the more outward (and downward) the club head is traveling compared to otherwise same shot with no forward lean.

What makes things confusing is that when one talks about path or face being open or closed, the reference may change. Usually a person thinks in terms of target line or plane line.

Ball, however, recognizes only the lines defining the D-plane.
 
When this whole D Plane topic was started I was in the process of having right knee replacement surgery. My surgery was on 9-2-2008, when I finally rehabbed enough to sit at the computer again, we had a new concept and Brian's signature had changed so now I need to know what I missed while I was away.

I have just reviewed every thread that contains explanations, photos, examples of shots, forward shaft lean angle degrees, etc. on the "D" plane and I have to say I am more confused now than I have ever been.

With golf being such a mental game and a game that while you are playing you are supposed to be relaxed and tension free this concept scares the death out of me.

Brian ever since I have been hanging out at this forum I have purchased NSA and SD. My game has improved through this forum and videos, so when a concept is introduced I need to understand.

Please help and if people want to send messages to me privately please do so.

But since the D plane is embraced by Brian, mandarin, jim and the majority of this forums membership. I have come to the conclusion that it has been excepted because no one is asking questions about it anymore. So as a forum member and Manzella fan for about 1 1/2 years I want to embrace it as well.

Thanks Jim T

Know how you feel..I am a calculus teacher and not real sure what it truly is..I am still trying to come to grips with it.
 
I know everyone who was looking at the diagram was so nice and thanked him for clearing things up, the whole diagram confused me even more.

Its actually frustrating me even more because I can't seem to get it

You know, the way I'd boil it down (skipping effect of lean and effect of down) is if you are playing shots with minimal shaft lean, which is mostly what I play these days, is if you want to play a very soft draw, then your clubface needs to be aimed a few yards to right of target and your path needs to be aimed a few more yards to the right of that at impact (my feel for a soft draw is aiming 4-5 yards right of target with a 7-iron, with path another 4-5 yards right of that). The immediate path off the clubface is due mostly to clubface, not path. If the ball curves a whole lot and hooks then the path and face are pointed too far apart. Once you get to the point you are hitting the ball high with only a tiny draw then you've got the face and path pointing in the right relationship to each other, almost at the same point. (The path is in 3-D space but think of path as the lower edge of the pizza slice laying on the ground, the face has loft and points much higher, and it is the top boundary of the pizza slice.) If you need a big hook on the course, you intentionally aim your path much further right of the clubface and tilt the pizza slice more to the left.

If when you are trying to hit a very soft draw and you hit a shot that cuts right just a little then your path got aimed just a little left of your clubface instead of a little right of the face (that tend to be my miss these days, not a bad miss to play).

Same rules apply for hitting a fade. Path needs to be a little left of clubface and clubface a little left of target (well, "little" might well be 10 yards left for a 6-iron), you need to tilt the pizza slice to the right by having the top edge (face) pointed a little right of path and lean the pizza slice of ballflight right. If ball moves too much in a cut direction, your face and path are not pointed enough in the same direction, there's a big angle between the two, and you've leaned the pizza slice of flight too much. If you hit it dead straight left while trying to play a fade, then you matched your clubface and path and had them aiming left at the same point. Then, the pizza slice is totally on its side and not leaning left or right because of a difference between face and path. The more the pizza slice is tilted left or right because of path and face being aimed in different directions, then the more the ball curves.

The ball flies on a big pizza slice (that's actually curved, but no need to worry about that) and that's what Mandrin's diagram shows. If it goes straight the path and face are pointing in the same direction and the pizza slice is straight up and down with no tilt left or right. If it draws/hooks the path is aimed right of the face and the pizza slice is tilted left, if it fades/cuts then the path is aimed left of face and the pizza slice is tilted right, if it curves a lot in either direction left or right there's a bigger difference in face and path direction, there is more pizza slice lean. If you are curving the ball too much on the range, you have to get your path and face to match up more and point more in the same direction.
 
Last edited:
What Jim says. Feel is very often not real. But you learn the feel for hitting a draw or fade and then repeat. But understanding ball flight rules closer to reality can help you learn how to hit a draw or fade much faster.
 
I'm still trying to figure this D-plane stuff out too.

Why wouldn't Nicklaus' technique work in theory? I'm going from memory here, but didn't he aim the face at the target and align his body either left or right depending on the curve he wanted.

So, the "normal" of the clubface is above the target and the club head velocity direction is parellel to his body alignment (left for a cut and right for a draw). I know I'm not accounting for shaft lean, but doesn't that generally tilt the "D" Plane as required for Jack's cut or draw?
 
My explanation of how the method where you aim clubface at target and aim yourself left or right to curve the ball, works because:

One would in reality learn to swing inside out relative to your stance for a draw and outside in for a fade. So in fact true path at separation is then further out or in than where body has been aimed at. That also moves face the same amount away from the target, so it's really pointing between true path and target.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top