New FRONT9 Video - Rory's Key Move - by Brian Manzella

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Richard Franklin

Richard Franklin

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"Also, I don't have all day in the video, but I wish I added "With your back still at the target...."
PHASE 1 - FORCE ALONG THE HAND PATH without your back turning too fast and re-locating your hands too far forward and putting your shoulder in a weak position to PULL. Pulling on the rope."

The New Never Slice Again Pattern : Curing the R Spin Axis Without Swivel

- Get Joe Slice-Piece to keep his back to the target. Then have him appreciate that to pull anything heavy he best stay closed to the target. Get him to release #1 and #4 and get on top of the sweetspot with enough slide to get to the ball. He'll see how little he needs to open to get into a reasonable impact. Brian has demonstrated this many times.. Although "twistaway" and "wedding ring up" might have made me more $ than anything else, the new anti- swivel protocol might have more LASTING power.

This forum, Brian/ Michael J/ and the scientists behind the info have given any instructor REALLY USEABLE information on how to help players of all levels. Thats what seperates this place from other sites that feature micro moves and dudes in biker shorts talking about anatomically flat left wrists.
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
gaspasser1 said:
I'm a little confused. I've been thinking of that pull from the top as "tugging". Isn't tugging to be avoided by those using the out-toss? Maybe i need a clearer idea of what tugging is....
Click to expand...

Also, the out toss is for some who have excessive tugging at the top. It helps the shaft recover at the top and then you can pull away from the target ALONG the hand path before trying to get behind the face coming down.

And yes, I've also seen Rory do the split hands tumble drill.

This a great video that illustrates some new concepts that upgrade Brian's long standing opinion of getting the club face to turn down early in the downswing and how one player, whether consciously or not, may go about doing that.
 
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eoscar

New member
Sorry to thread jack, but where did this info come from? "These ideas are omnipresent in The New Never Slice Again Pattern : Curing the R Spin Axis Without Swivel"
 
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art

New
ssssc said:
yes, ty for the clarifications!
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Dear GeoffDickson and ssssc,

Thanks for the question, and be assured that it points out to me that I was not clear enough, and IMO THIS IS A VERY HIGH PAYOFF AREA, that has not received enough science-based attention.

First the answer, and then a shot at the explanation.

The 'trajectory' of the left shoulder, especially the interface between the head of the humerus and the glenoid cavity is CRUCIALLY important in determining the quality of the golf swing. In general terms, I have seen variations of the left shoulder turning 'horizontally', once in a while almost vertically (right shoulder under the left shoulder at impact), and often somewhere in between, but usually at angles much flatter than the 'Hogan, glass plate' swing plane.

Since your 'natural' shoulder plane will be affected by the degree and timing of your shoulder complex activity (explained below), as a starting point, I suggest exploring the ball striking performance around an approximate 45 degree inclined plane BUT JUST UNTIL IMPACT. I predict you will see a big improvement if you were previously prone to a flat, near horizontal movement. If you already had a reasonable inclination , your improvement should come from assuring the left shoulder was still going up that plane at impact. If it levels off prematurely, both club head velocity and the quality and position of the club/ball impact will IMO be adversely affected, and can be measured by the absolute values and dispersion of the 'Smash Factor'.

In partial explanation, if you have read almost any of my earlier posts, I hope you have gotten the impression that I TRUST the body to help in making 'near optimum' decisions regarding all movements. In the case of the shoulders, as I stated, the shoulder 'girdles/complexes' move independently from each other, and also augment the angular motions and velocities of the rib cage/torso during the downswing.

I personally call this 'golf's MISSING link' in that because of adding very significant complexities to any analysis, it has been analytically neglected, but it's value has not been lost. The X-factor and X factor stretch communities have recognized this additional club head velocity enhancer, identifying it as a shoulder/torso combined element, and subtracted from it the angular position of the pelvis at the top of the back swing (X factor), and at the end of the 'transition' (X factor stretch).

Since anatomically, the shoulder complexes and the torso are separate entities, and because the shoulder complex and torque and force generating capabilities significantly exceed those of the torso, IMO (but much work needs to be done in in this area), there will be a significant club head velocity payoff from a more optimum use of this area, especially the path of both shoulder complexes during the down swing.
 
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jbrunk

New
I supposed I need some clarification as well.

Pitch elbow 'feel' is the 'underhand javelin 'feel' right?

I have been feeling sort of a loop in my swing at the top. From a SD backswing position to 'laying it on the plane' feel and then force about the CP tumble.

Am I interpretting those feels/moves correctly?
 
Richard Franklin

Richard Franklin

New
eoscar said:
Sorry to thread jack, but where did this info come from? "These ideas are omnipresent in The New Never Slice Again Pattern : Curing the R Spin Axis Without Swivel"
Click to expand...

I was merely suggesting that if implemented and coordinated properly the 3 phases of the "new release" might even be more effective than the original Never Slice Again, which Martin Hall so accurately described as giving those that have seen it "an unfair advantage".
 
Richard Franklin

Richard Franklin

New
"Since anatomically, the shoulder complexes and the torso are separate entities, and because the shoulder complex and torque and force generating capabilities significantly exceed those of the torso, IMO (but much work needs to be done in in this area), there will be a significant club head velocity payoff from a more optimum use of this area, especially the path of both shoulder complexes during the down swing."


Love that..
And so does "Boom Boom " Couples. The poster child for maxing out shoulder capsule contribution.
 
V

Vortex

New
art said:
Dear GeoffDickson and ssssc,

Thanks for the question, and be assured that it points out to me that I was not clear enough, and IMO THIS IS A VERY HIGH PAYOFF AREA, that has not received enough science-based attention.

First the answer, and then a shot at the explanation.

The 'trajectory' of the left shoulder, especially the interface between the head of the humerus and the glenoid cavity is CRUCIALLY important in determining the quality of the golf swing. In general terms, I have seen variations of the left shoulder turning 'horizontally', once in a while almost vertically (right shoulder under the left shoulder at impact), and often somewhere in between, but usually at angles much flatter than the 'Hogan, glass plate' swing plane.

Since your 'natural' shoulder plane will be affected by the degree and timing of your shoulder complex activity (explained below), as a starting point, I suggest exploring the ball striking performance around an approximate 45 degree inclined plane BUT JUST UNTIL IMPACT. I predict you will see a big improvement if you were previously prone to a flat, near horizontal movement. If you already had a reasonable inclination , your improvement should come from assuring the left shoulder was still going up that plane at impact. If it levels off prematurely, both club head velocity and the quality and position of the club/ball impact will IMO be adversely affected, and can be measured by the absolute values and dispersion of the 'Smash Factor'.

In partial explanation, if you have read almost any of my earlier posts, I hope you have gotten the impression that I TRUST the body to help in making 'near optimum' decisions regarding all movements. In the case of the shoulders, as I stated, the shoulder 'girdles/complexes' move independently from each other, and also augment the angular motions and velocities of the rib cage/torso during the downswing.

I personally call this 'golf's MISSING link' in that because of adding very significant complexities to any analysis, it has been analytically neglected, but it's value has not been lost. The X-factor and X factor stretch communities have recognized this additional club head velocity enhancer, identifying it as a shoulder/torso combined element, and subtracted from it the angular position of the pelvis at the top of the back swing (X factor), and at the end of the 'transition' (X factor stretch).

Since anatomically, the shoulder complexes and the torso are separate entities, and because the shoulder complex and torque and force generating capabilities significantly exceed those of the torso, IMO (but much work needs to be done in in this area), there will be a significant club head velocity payoff from a more optimum use of this area, especially the path of both shoulder complexes during the down swing.
Click to expand...

Art,

I am beginning to detect a pattern here. I noticed how each time I find something that yields significant improvement for me at the range and the course, I can trust that I would find eventually and somehow find an explanation of it in one of your deep insightful posts.

In terms of Trackman data, I can vouch that for my case, improvement in the movement of my left shoulder complex helped to increase my launch angles which were too low to more optimal numbers. This obviously benefitted my overall carry numbers.

This video by Brian on Rory was another icing on the cake in terms of the right shoulder complex.

(Also thanks for reminding me to read Dr Grober's work on tempo. Was perplexed at why my putting performance seemed to be declining until I saw your reminder.)

I am in positive anticipation of my next round to see how it will all perform.

To quote someone famous, "I am getting close...."

My best regards.
 
G

GeoffDickson

New
Art,

Is your proposed swing thought consistent with the idea of the shoulders rotating perpendicular to the spine? OR

Is it about ensuring that a line drawn (face on view) from right shoulder to left shoulder (just before impact) is at 45* ?
 
A

art

New
GeoffDickson said:
Art,

Is your proposed swing thought consistent with the idea of the shoulders rotating perpendicular to the spine? OR

Is it about ensuring that a line drawn (face on view) from right shoulder to left shoulder (just before impact) is at 45* ?
Click to expand...

Dear GeoffDickson,

WOW, I really mis-communicated the 45 degree starting point description and apologize.

I spent almost all my career working/consulting to the military missiles and space organizations here in the US. So, from my previous life "What the General meant to say"....regarding your question was 45 degrees NOT FACE ON, but viewing this angle with the ground DOWN THE LINE. Unfortunately, with the camera BEHIND the golfer, and looking towards the target, the left shoulder is obscured by the body at impact, but you will be able to see it rise from the its low point aaaas the downswing begins.

In fact, if you were lucky enough to have a few golf magazines from the past, look for 'time sequenced views of the swing LOOKING BACK at the golfer hitting towards you, and watch the left shoulder 'go up a plane' until impact.

As for the shoulders rotating 'perpendicular to the spine', as you put it, "my proposed swing thought" is NOT consistent, but thanks, that may be a GREAT starting angle/plane from which to explore to find YOUR best/optimum left shoulder plane, rather than the 45 degree point.

The reason I do not agree with this, are the anatomical realities that the independent shoulder motions, as defined by the humerus/glenoid for each shoulder, have a 'conical range of motion' actually pivoting off the attachment of both clavicles to the sternum in the front of the body, not the spine in the back. Additionally, the real and complex motions of the shoulders are controlled by the left and right scapulae (shoulder blades), which in my scientific world are awaiting discovery for their role in powering 'the missing link' I wrote about earlier.
 
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GeoffDickson

New
Art,

I think i am nearly there...Let's look at the this image: Swing sequence: Rich Beem: Golf Digest

...and in particular the middle row and the photos 4-6 (and maybe 7). If I was to trace the position of the left should from top of backswing (Photo 4) to impact (Photo 6-7), it looks to me like the left should moves in a 45* direction 'up'. Is this observation consistent with your message.
 
A

art

New
GeoffDickson said:
Art,

I think i am nearly there...Let's look at the this image: Swing sequence: Rich Beem: Golf Digest

...and in particular the middle row and the photos 4-6 (and maybe 7). If I was to trace the position of the left should from top of backswing (Photo 4) to impact (Photo 6-7), it looks to me like the left should moves in a 45* direction 'up'. Is this observation consistent with your message.
Click to expand...

Dear GeoffDickson,

Thanks for the 'visuals, and YES that is exactly what I was trying to communicate with words. Just one cautionary not; there is nothing sacred about the exact angle, as every golfer is unique, and YOUR and their 'best' angle will be determined based upon a whole bunch of 'anatomical and range of motion of characteristics that themselves depend on conditioning etc. So, just start with some comfortable angle, hit 10 or so shots (a statistically derived number to detect change), then reduce and increase the angle with 10 more shots each.

I strongly suggest you do this a few times without a launch monitor to get the feel and feedback just from the impact and flight of the ball at a driving range. Then when appropriate, take the experiment to a TrackMan or FlightScope facility, and do the 10 ball tests, keeping the data on ONLY those swings that you by 'AWARENESS' after the shot could affirm was at the 'angle' you were testing (ie. 45 degrees, or higher, or lower).

Then if you wish and if you are willing, for the 3 tests, just post the summary averages and dispersions of distance, off axis, club and ball speed, and 'Smash Factor' and I will be happy to assess the results for you.
 
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