Nicklaus Swing (age 15)

[birly-shirly]

Sure but my point was to highlight the kind of distance Tiger was capable of.Did Nicklaus ever show that kind of power even for one tournament?He may have but I haven't seen or read about it.

Sure - but MY point was (similar to what you said in post 34 whilst I was digging up Tiger's figures) that Tiger's '97 firepower was shortlived. Both Tiger and Jack hit the ball shorter in their primes than they did as fresh pros, and probably amateurs. Comparing Tiger in '97 to mid-career Jack is apples to oranges. But sadly, I don't think there's any likelihood of there being reliable stats for young Jack to allow a fair comparison.

But you could do worse than check this out - second story down. Masters 2005 presented by Augusta.com - What they are saying: Golf's legends are getting out of Tiger's way

 

[dbl]

Strange that much later Nicklaus had a very steady head, like he often said.

 

[birly-shirly]

aye - it must take a lot of practice, even for Jack

 

[dschultz6072]

aye - it must take a lot of practice, even for Jack

Probably just because he throttled back his swing and didn't have to recruit his body so hard.

 

[jeffy]

Probably just because he throttled back his swing and didn't have to recruit his body so hard.

I have another theory. Grout wanted him to hit it high, and you can see that, at 15, he drops the head, stays back and gets a lot of axis tilt. As he got older and stronger, I think he used clubhead speed to get the ball up in the air, and was able to keep his head more still. I remember reading somewhere that he even had the face of his irons filed down to shallow the grooves so he'd spin the ball less: didn't need the spin because he had so much clubhead speed, and with less backspin he could control the ball better. I think in this video he is swinging much harder than as a 15 year old:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZI-qQhMQZMo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Remember that I posted earlier that Jack hit the 18th green at St. Andrews three times in 1964 with a three wood (that was when he was 24). That hole is about 350-360 yards. Tiger hit it with a driver in 2010. Granted, Nicklaus was using the smaller British ball, but my recollection is that the British ball was about 10% longer than the American ball, perhaps a little more; maybe some of our UK members can give us a more accurate assessment. Anyway, let's say the small ball was 20% longer, then we are talking about the equivalent of ~300 yards with a three wood and the old equipment: that impresses the hell out of me. With a driver and today's technology, 360 yards sounds like a cinch.

 

[jeffy]

We don't have Jacks's early stats but we do during the period 1980 and 1986.It's not that mind boggling and he isn't even consistently in the top 10.No doubt he lost distance compared to his younger days but I doubt it would be like 30 or 40 yards.

Jack was 40 years old in 1980. And like Tiger, his swing changes as he got older resulted in less distance. He even thought losing weight hurt his distance because in 1970 he needed driver to reach the 18th at St. Andrews, whereas in 1964 he could get there with a three wood.

 

[spktho]

I have another theory. Grout wanted him to hit it high, and you can see that, at 15, he drops the head, stays back and gets a lot of axis tilt. As he got older and stronger, I think he used clubhead speed to get the ball up in the air, and was able to keep his head more still. I remember reading somewhere that he even had the face of his irons filed down to shallow the grooves so he'd spin the ball less: didn't need the spin because he had so much clubhead speed, and with less backspin he could control the ball better. I think in this video he is swinging much harder than as a 15 year old:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZI-qQhMQZMo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

There is a different camera angle, but it also looks like he has a different release, much sooner in the swing when he is older, which would also lend to hitting the ball higher. His 15 year old release has a lot of the Hogan and Sergio later release look to it.

 

[dschultz6072]

There is a different camera angle, but it also looks like he has a different release, much sooner in the swing when he is older, which would also lend to hitting the ball higher. His 15 year old release has a lot of the Hogan and Sergio later release look to it.

Earlier release was probably taken after his bursitis made him obliged to draw the ball. I'd argue he was actually hitting the ball lower. When you swing all out you don't have all the time to release the club at the ball so you are more apt to hitting a fade/slice because you're likely going to be late.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Do we know what the wind conditions and how firm the course was in 1964. I didnt think so.

 

[jeffy]

Do we know what the wind conditions and how firm the course was in 1964. I didnt think so.

Ye of little faith...

"I made my first acquaintance with St. Andrews in 1964, the year of Tony Lema's superb British Open victory in gale-force winds after only twenty-seven holes of practice...

"The second difficulty factor is the wind, and not just in its strength, which can be mighty, but its unpredictability. As the compass has 360 degrees, so there are that many wind directions at St. Andrews. Worse yet, they frequently seem to change every few minutes." - from Jack Nickluas: My Story, page 222.

"The prevailing wind at St. Andrews is from the southwest, or from left to right on the first seven plus tenth and eleventh holes [and right to left on holes 12 through 17, into the wind on 9, and downwind on 8 and 18]. As a fader of the ball, this had troubled me in 1964 by forcing me to aim further left than I was comfortable doing, then pray that the wind would swing the ball back to the target. When the wind eased suddenly or gusted extra strongly, as it frequently did, that would not happen, and I had been left with some nasty recoveries." - from Jack Nickluas: My Story, page 224.

"I played as well as I expected that week, but, as can easily happen with Britain's helter-skelter climate and its championship's large starting fields and thus long opening days, I was unlucky with the weather. In the first round I had a late starting time and in the second round an early one, which exactly coincided with the worst winds I have experienced in more than thirty British Opens. With gusts exceeding sixty miles an hour, it was sometimes a struggle to remain standing, never mind swing a golf club." - from Jack Nickluas: My Story, page 137.

"To have any chance after that I needed a fast start in the third round, and got one in much improved conditions with birdies at the first, fourth, seventh, ninth, and, twelfth holes." [36 hole final in those days, so final round was under similar conditions].- from Jack Nickluas: My Story, page 137.

The course is on sandy linksland that drains very well. There was no irrigation in those days.

 

[jeffy]

Do we know what the wind conditions and how firm the course was in 1964. I didnt think so.

A briefer synopsis from The Greatest Game of All, page 175:

"On Wednesday [eventual winner Tony Lema] had an early round and I had a late one, on Thursday it was the other way around, and on both days he missed the worst weather and I caught it. It had been particularly fierce on Wednesday afternoon - cold rain and a sixty mile-an-hour wind that literally blew you over when you were putting. On Friday, the day of the final two rounds, playing conditions were excellent."

 

[jeffy]

On and Off the Fairway was published in 1978. From page 47, above a picture of 21 year old Jack at the top of his swing with a driver, looking ready to burst:

"Oh, boy! Was I ever strong in those days! Could I bust the ball! That was the summer of 1961, and some measure of how powerful I was around that time is that during the year I broke the face inserts out of nine drivers. That's never happened to me since, so either Mac Gregor has been making better golf clubs or I've been getting weaker!

"Seriously, this was probably the strongest - and the longest - I've ever been: a good thirty pounds heavier than I am today and a good thirty yards longer on average with the driver."

In 1980, two years after this was published, Nicklaus averaged 269 yards off the tee, implying he averaged around 300 yards in his early 20s. Would technology add 60 yards??? Maybe...but it sounds like a stretch. Dan Pohl was the distance leader in 1980 at 274 yards and JB Holmes is the distance leader today at 318, a 44 yard increase. 300 plus 44 is 344. But, from what I remember of Pohl, Holmes takes a much bigger cut at it, more like the young Jack. Maybe 330 is a more reasonable guesstimate.

 

[hp12c]

OUCH!!!!

Don't let Brandel Chamblee see that swing or he'd have a stroke!

Nice going Jeffy

 

[jeffy]

Just stumbled across this quote, which perhaps explains why his ballstriking is overlooked:

"In 1961 and 1962, I was very pleased with the way I hit the ball. I hit it long and straight during those two years. In the middle 60s, I wasn't quite as good with the driver, but I was very sound with the irons. Then, toward the late 60s, my iron play went off. I played on power for several years. In the 1970s, I had some new problems. When I lost 20 pounds in 1969, I lost 20 yards. Being lighter was only incidental -- I lost distance because my swing was starting to deteriorate. It got too upright. During the 70s, I wasn't a good striker of the ball at all. Oh, I won a lot of tournaments. In both 1972 and 1975, I won two major championships -- my game happened to be at its best in those important weeks." - The New Yorker, 1983.

 

[aaron_lohan]

In his autobiography and his instruction book Nicklaus said he drove the ball 270-280 and only ever hit it over 300 with "some hot Australian balls"

 

[dschultz6072]

He was being modest. He was more than capable of the 300 ball. He probably hit it 270-280 using 75-80% comfy swings because his natural ability to hit it far didn't require a whole lot of effort to reach greens.

 

[Matt Bryda]

OUCH!!!!

Don't let Brandel Chamblee see that swing or he'd have a stroke!

Not saying he doesn't dip but..
Hand held camera

 

[jeffy]

Not saying he doesn't dip but..
Hand held camera

Yep, tilts up during the backswing and exaggerates the dip at the top. I wondered how he got so much dip in the backswing. Good catch.

 

[jeffy]

He was being modest. He was more than capable of the 300 ball. He probably hit it 270-280 using 75-80% comfy swings because his natural ability to hit it far didn't require a whole lot of effort to reach greens.

Agreed. He could "stretch" his distance better than anyone on tour, at least that was Dave Stockton's opinion. An example was the 1-iron on the 72nd hole at the 1967 US Open at Baltusrol. 230 to carry the bunker, uphill quite a bit and into a slight breeze, so playing 250 carry at least. At the time, he wrote that his max distance with a 1-iron was 235 (The Greatest Game of All, page 303: 1-iron distance 215 to 235 yards). Knocked it right on the green and made birdie to set the scoring record. As he wrote there:

"To repeat, except for certain situations where I have ample margin for error on the tee-shot, I never hit the ball with everything I have."

 

[rcw]

Tiger should take note of that last statement when using the big stick.