No Contest.

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Brian Manzella

Administrator
I saw and heard something today teaching in Vegas that I almost could't believe, but after 28 years in the biz, I can believe anything.

I gave a lesson to a golfer who will remain nameless.

He had taken a lesson from a "teacher" that is known on every golf instruction internet site. He is one of the new breed, not super young or old. Not super famous, but known. Well thought of everywhere. He is a first lieutenant in an army of guys who have a massive superiority complex as a group, although he is really like that as far as I know.

The only other thing I'll say is he isn't a book literalist/tripoder.

To be honest, it doesn't matter who he is.

It is what he didn't do in the lesson this guy took from him.

The "student" is a strong guy, not very young or close to old. Good enough athlete.

The "student" twisted the shaft open on the backswing as much as he physically could with a good grip—the ultimate "twist-toward."

This "teacher" gave this "student" a lesson and NEVER EVER EVEN MENTIONED—much less fixed or even band-aided—this student's OBVIOUS FAULT.

I mean, from there, all the "student" could do was shovel it forward and try not to slice it off the earth.

I fixed him up good, Never Slice Again style, and that was that. He hit many PURE shots, zeroed out with a PERFECT angle of attack and vertical swing plane on TrackMan.

He hit some great drives, many with a little draw, and left very happy.

The moral of this story?

Wow!

There are folks on the internet that criticize me? And my teaching? And my material?

Give me a break!

There NEEDS TO BE a massive live lesson demonstration done somewhere, sometime, with everyone who thinks they can actually teach.

I say demonstration because NOBODY wants a teach off.

So, ok, no "teach off."

But let's at least have a teaching SHOW OFF!

Please.

This "wave" of new wave instruction needs a little reality check.

And the world of golf needs to find out what works and who can "cut the mustard" in the real world.

No contest.
 
F

footwedge

New member
Brian Manzella said:
I saw and heard something today teaching in Vegas that I almost could't believe, but after 28 years in the biz, I can believe anything.

I gave a lesson to a golfer who will remain nameless.

He had taken a lesson from a "teacher" that is known on every golf instruction internet site. He is one of the new breed, not super young or old. Not super famous, but known. Well thought of everywhere. He is a first lieutenant in an army of guys who have a massive superiority complex as a group, although he is really like that as far as I know.

The only other thing I'll say is he isn't a book literalist/tripoder.

To be honest, it doesn't matter who he is.

It is what he didn't do in the lesson this guy took from him.

The "student" is a strong guy, not very young or close to old. Good enough athlete.

The "student" twisted the shaft open on the backswing as much as he physically could with a good grip—the ultimate "twist-toward."

This "teacher" gave this "student" a lesson and NEVER EVER EVEN MENTIONED—much less fixed or even band-aided—this student's OBVIOUS FAULT.

I mean, from there, all the "student" could do was shovel it forward and try not to slice it off the earth.

I fixed him up good, Never Slice Again style, and that was that. He hit many PURE shots, zeroed out with a PERFECT angle of attack and vertical swing plane on TrackMan.

He hit some great drives, many with a little draw, and left very happy.

The moral of this story?

Wow!

There are folks on the internet that criticize me? And my teaching? And my material?

Give me a break!

There NEEDS TO BE a massive live lesson demonstration done somewhere, sometime, with everyone who thinks they can actually teach.

I say demonstration because NOBODY wants a teach off.

So, ok, no "teach off."

But let's at least have a teaching SHOW OFF!

Please.

This "wave" of new wave instruction needs a little reality check.

And the world of golf needs to find out what works and who can "cut the mustard" in the real world.

No contest.
Click to expand...

If that ever happened and you proved your the best, then what?
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

New
What WAS the student taught by the "teacher"?

Disregard this question Brian if you wish NOT to give these details...
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

New
At least if a mass teaching demonstration was advertised and no one signed up it would raise questions as to why. Yet another clue that no one wants to compete/be evaluated.

Instead we have mass misinformation and kool aid drinking. I know I am hoping for better...not sure about everyone else.

First of all most of the rich teachers won't care- they are already well off and have little to gain. (but what if they felt threatened to lose?)

If someone or some media source would actually corral some teachers that could really get things done you'd think that person or party would have a good shot at things. The teacher(s) have to be really cutting edge with really (scientifically) sound information. (and like Brian says not boring)

I guess at this point it would seem too risky for any current established source to go after something like that. (and unseat everyone they currently have on board, for starters) If they even have any clue at all. (some out there must though)

They must be missing a lot of people though. All the people who gave up on magazines and teachers.

The ones who just do it their own way.

If you have something like Trackman backing you and it gets out in the open for the world to see maybe that could be something. It is rare to see any impactful discussion at all in the mainstream about things we have known for a while in here. Of course there are always people out there who can spin these things to seem less important etc. etc. But but...I think it is pretty well understood that modern tech does not lie.

When will the breaking point be. It's gonna happen at some point obviously. (esp. with technology- Trackman, the net, etc.)

What about some kind of "Big Break For Teachers" reality show.

I don't know.

I'm sure people would watch it anyway. I mean, look at all the BS that goes on just on the internet. Get some teachers putting their ideas against each other and it's gotta make for some good TV yes? :);)

(maybe someone will tell a guy to leave his wife on Nat. TV)
 
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Matt Bryda

Matt Bryda

New
If that ever happened and you proved your the best, then what?
Click to expand...

Are you kidding me?

I think the bigger picture would be that people would improve their games as a whole for maybe the first time ever. And the golfers out there that just want to play a little better might actually play better sooner than a lifetime of trying every goofy thing that comes along. I want to be a part of this great game when Brian and his guys get to the top of instruction land because there will be WAY more better players out there and golf will be booming again!

Matt
 
I

imac

New
The "student" twisted the shaft open on the backswing as much as he physically could with a good grip—the ultimate "twist-toward."

This "teacher" gave this "student" a lesson and NEVER EVER EVEN MENTIONED—much less fixed or even band-aided—this student's OBVIOUS FAULT.
Click to expand...
This takes me back 40+ years. A 13 yo kid (1965) with the mother of all slices, but with great solid contact. The pro's fix was to close my stance, which really did not help in my quest to play from the original fairway. Loved the game, but the slice kept me from playing (it was that bad). Fast forward to age 50. Re-entry into golf - with the same slice. More lessons. That pro (with direct lineage to Harvey Penick) wanted me to concentrate on my "footwork." I band-aided myself with a super strong grip and a non-release release to get myself around the golf course. A few more lessons here and there, but NEVER a mention about club face. Eventually I came limping and dragging to brianmanzella.com 3 years ago. I incorporated all of NSA, followed by SD. Huge impact on my game (for the good). I'm finally in the right fairway. Some day I'll set up a real lesson. Love this site.
 
C

chrisfx811

New
birdie_man said:
*snip*

What about some kind of "Big Break For Teachers" reality show.

*snip*
Click to expand...

At the risk of someone else making a fortune off this idea, I think it would be brilliant. Not only would the genuinely interested crowd watch to see who could really make a difference, but the vast majority of 'quick fix' golfers would be all over a show like this for the tips alone.

I mean the Haney show is insufferable, but a showdown show of instructors would be awesome.
 
M

mb6606

New
chrisfx811 said:
At the risk of someone else making a fortune off this idea, I think it would be brilliant. Not only would the genuinely interested crowd watch to see who could really make a difference, but the vast majority of 'quick fix' golfers would be all over a show like this for the tips alone.

I mean the Haney show is insufferable, but a showdown show of instructors would be awesome.
Click to expand...

I read this quote yesterday from Kelvin Miyahira - pretty much sums it up why it would never happen.

"P, inventing speedchains meant going up against the "big boys" in the strength training world. And after meeting guys like Boyd Epley and Juan Carlos Santana who are at the top of their industry, I truly believe they aren't any smarter than the rest of us (just more pompous). They might be kings for now, but they are dinosaurs in their thinking. And so it is with golf instructors or biomechanical "experts". The top guys don't need to change or learn anything new, they're already at the top. So if they never learn anything new, they're never wrong. And so it is but it leaves a huge vacuum of knowledge despite advances in technology. Dr. Gracovetsky is involved in the same fight with the medical field over his spine engine theory. So there it is. We are soul brothers fighting the good fight against the establishment. K"
 
M

Mike Thomas (sunmart)

New member
Brian, at the conclusion of this Haney Project Romano show I would love to see your top ten WHY?:D questions addressed to Hank Haney. In other words, Why did you not address the clubface or why did you not address his stance on pitches, etc. And you don't have to stop at ten.
 
F

footwedge

New member
sideyard said:
Are you kidding me?

I think the bigger picture would be that people would improve their games as a whole for maybe the first time ever. And the golfers out there that just want to play a little better might actually play better sooner than a lifetime of trying every goofy thing that comes along. I want to be a part of this great game when Brian and his guys get to the top of instruction land because there will be WAY more better players out there and golf will be booming again!

Matt
Click to expand...

That's all in your imagination, fantasy. More realistic is that it wouldn't matter as much as you think. Do you think because Brian could out teach some other instructors that they are all going to stop their way of teaching, and the golf world will just all change, really?

I mean he out teaches them now and has any of the top guys changed their methods? They don't want Brian at the top, he's too dangerous to their world.

People can find Brian on this site, youtube, etc. it's not like he's hiding, you can or i can or almost anyone can book a lesson with him or other Manzella instuctors it's not going to be that easy.

People disagreed on the way to swing a golf club since the game began and even in the face of science that will continue. That's the nature of people, i mean how many different religions are there? How many different flavors of Koolaid are there to drink? Doesn't mean he can't try ,but it's a big world and there's room for all kinds of things.
 
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ZAP

ZAP

New
I already pitched this Big Break for Teachers show to TGC. Maybe if we started flooding their inbox with email they might consider it. That is one show I would watch for sure.

I pitched it as a "Ultimate Teacher" idea in the vain of the Ultimate fighter show. They could have the teachers pick teams and then work with them before having matches. Then we would see not only which teachers could make their students make pretty swings but also teaching the whole game.
 
S

softconsult

New
I agree with footwedge. His view is much closer to reality.

I have made this next point before. A visitor to this site will have a hard time figuring out that Shields is in Pittsburgh, and Jim is in Cleveland (I think). Seems logical to me that they would put their location with their signature. Ideally, there should be a list of Academy Instructors and their contact info.
 
ZAP

ZAP

New
softconsult said:
I agree with footwedge. His view is much closer to reality.

I have made this next point before. A visitor to this site will have a hard time figuring out that Shields is in Pittsburgh, and Jim is in Cleveland (I think). Seems logical to me that they would put their location with their signature. Ideally, there should be a list of Academy Instructors and their contact info.
Click to expand...

I would actually like to see a map of where they are.
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
softconsult said:
I agree with footwedge. His view is much closer to reality.

I have made this next point before. A visitor to this site will have a hard time figuring out that Shields is in Pittsburgh, and Jim is in Cleveland (I think). Seems logical to me that they would put their location with their signature. Ideally, there should be a list of Academy Instructors and their contact info.
Click to expand...

lol...um it's right under my avatar or in my profile :p
 
B

birly-shirly

New
what contest?

could be just me, but the whole idea of teaching as "a contest" strikes me as one of the fundamental reasons why it'll never happen.

if teachers are harbouring some unconsumated competitive urges, then (IMHO) they should work them out of their system on the course - preferably with money at stake.

the teaching community AS A WHOLE would (again, IMHO) command more respect and probably teach more lessons if they stopped pissing on each other's theories, teaching styles, credentials and results. I don't think it helps at all that, depending on who you listen to, EVERYONE is getting it drastically wrong.

meanwhile, I think it's something of a scandal what many golfers will shell out on replacing a 2 year old driver or a set of irons sporting BOLD NEW GRAPHICS when the same golfer is probably sceptical that money on lessons might be more help.

a teaching contest isn't necessary, nor is it particularly scientific. however, since most everyone here is already enamoured of trackman I think it would be a pretty obvious step to post up, IN OBJECTIVE FIGURES, the improvement resulting from lessons given. no-one else needs to play, no-one needs to compete. hell, we're not even talking about improved SCORING, which to some minds is supposed to be the point. but I think it would be incredibly powerful to show in hard data some actual results - whether that's increased clubhead speed, a more centered strike, or a zeroed out path and face.

anyone who does this with any credibility will raise the bar on good teaching - which would be a far more effective challenge than pitching some reality gameshow that will never air.
 
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