gaspasser1
New
birly-shirly is the voice of reason. Besides, I like having BManz as my secret weapon when guys I play with are talking about laying the club off like they saw on TGC last night.....
No Contest.
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
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Richie3Jack
New
I see where you are coming from birley-shirley. But, I just don't ever see it happening AND I can understand why.
Golfers who play the game frequently almost inevitably become very passionate, if not obsessed with their game. It's also very easy to sympathize with other golfers, regardless of the level you play on and the level they play on.
I've never been a professional instructor, but I would imagine it would frustate me quite a bit to see a student come to me after working with a teacher whom they paid more money to go to who really has a history of screwing up golfers left and right. But because they are in the right place at the right time and can market themselves, they continue to get students.
And while it's nice that in the end the student comes to me for help, I'd rather make some simple tweaks to enhance their game to another level than to do a complete overhaul. But remember, while students may come to me in the end, there's just as many golfers IMO that quit taking lessons all together because this teacher screwed them up.
I have a forum and as the admin I like to treat it very much like a judge would treat a courtroom and the rest of the members are the jury (but they have the power to chime in). Present your theories with facts and/or somewhat reasonable logic. If you don't agree with a theory, back it up. And if somebody is disagreeing with your theory, then that theory is only as strong as your ability to back it up with facts and/or somewhat reasonable logic.
IMO, I think the golf instruction industry gets hurt MORE by fellow PGA pros being apprehensive of speaking out against other instructor's theories and teachings because it may hurt their career in the long run. It certainly does not do me, the amateur and lesson taker, any good.
3JACK
Golfers who play the game frequently almost inevitably become very passionate, if not obsessed with their game. It's also very easy to sympathize with other golfers, regardless of the level you play on and the level they play on.
I've never been a professional instructor, but I would imagine it would frustate me quite a bit to see a student come to me after working with a teacher whom they paid more money to go to who really has a history of screwing up golfers left and right. But because they are in the right place at the right time and can market themselves, they continue to get students.
And while it's nice that in the end the student comes to me for help, I'd rather make some simple tweaks to enhance their game to another level than to do a complete overhaul. But remember, while students may come to me in the end, there's just as many golfers IMO that quit taking lessons all together because this teacher screwed them up.
I have a forum and as the admin I like to treat it very much like a judge would treat a courtroom and the rest of the members are the jury (but they have the power to chime in). Present your theories with facts and/or somewhat reasonable logic. If you don't agree with a theory, back it up. And if somebody is disagreeing with your theory, then that theory is only as strong as your ability to back it up with facts and/or somewhat reasonable logic.
IMO, I think the golf instruction industry gets hurt MORE by fellow PGA pros being apprehensive of speaking out against other instructor's theories and teachings because it may hurt their career in the long run. It certainly does not do me, the amateur and lesson taker, any good.
3JACK
Matt Bryda
New
I wouldn't call it out teach I would call it did they get better and did they realize they got better and did they go back for more lessons? In the end the ones that teach a specific method eventually go away because the method may only work for a limited number of people. When you have more tools and know many methods you will reach more people and show them how to improve their game.
Have you ever had a lesson with Brian or any of his staff?
Matt
birly-shirly
New
fair comments Richie - but what exactly don't you see ever happening?
my main suggestion wasn't that instructors stop arguing their points.
I do happen to think that there's a level of debate that, however sincerely argued, actually hurts the teaching profession as a whole.
I also believe passionately and sincerely that, for the vast majority of the golfing population (self included), second-hand standard spec equipment, combined with lessons and practice is just the smartest money you can spend. so why are golf magazines full of big glossy equipment ads?
I do think that a teaching profession that collectively allows the focus to be on the differences between rival methods or personalities is shooting itself in the foot, or the pocket. I'm not sure which is worse...
and finally, I think I read pretty widely around different teaching methods and theories, and I'm happy to accept that most have some merit. I don't shrink from the task of trying to sift out what works or makes sense for me personally
but that's all beside the main point. what I'd really like to see, instead of a group of guys failing to agree terms of engagement and calling each other chicken, is just one guy start putting up some hard numbers to show real outcomes from his teaching.
I mean, we've got technology now that can actually quantify the damage of a mis-hit shot. the same technology can document what you gain in distance and accuracy from improving your swing. hell, you could even compare value for money between a 300 buck driver and 300 bucks in lessons and range balls.
we don't need an argument about who's the best teacher. we just need a demonstration of teaching that works. no contest.
my main suggestion wasn't that instructors stop arguing their points.
I do happen to think that there's a level of debate that, however sincerely argued, actually hurts the teaching profession as a whole.
I also believe passionately and sincerely that, for the vast majority of the golfing population (self included), second-hand standard spec equipment, combined with lessons and practice is just the smartest money you can spend. so why are golf magazines full of big glossy equipment ads?
I do think that a teaching profession that collectively allows the focus to be on the differences between rival methods or personalities is shooting itself in the foot, or the pocket. I'm not sure which is worse...
and finally, I think I read pretty widely around different teaching methods and theories, and I'm happy to accept that most have some merit. I don't shrink from the task of trying to sift out what works or makes sense for me personally
but that's all beside the main point. what I'd really like to see, instead of a group of guys failing to agree terms of engagement and calling each other chicken, is just one guy start putting up some hard numbers to show real outcomes from his teaching.
I mean, we've got technology now that can actually quantify the damage of a mis-hit shot. the same technology can document what you gain in distance and accuracy from improving your swing. hell, you could even compare value for money between a 300 buck driver and 300 bucks in lessons and range balls.
we don't need an argument about who's the best teacher. we just need a demonstration of teaching that works. no contest.
Richie3Jack
New
This is what I agree with, but I don't ever see it happening.
I understand that a lot of people see Brian as a somebody who calls out different instructors, but I can say that I know of very famous instructors that do the same all of the time to all sorts of competitors.
One of the things I find funny is when I hear a teacher downright denounce TGM and then go into something that is pretty much TGM 101. Or if somebody merely mentions something about Mac O'Grady to teachers out there, they blow it off like he's a kook whose teaching have no merits. And the same happens if Brian's name is brought up. Even if you just mention 'D-Plane', I've seen teachers go into a rant about Brian when he never invented D-Plane nor does he claim to.
It happens everywhere and in all sorts of industries. I've worked in many different industries where C-Level execs knock other companies and their C-Level execs quite a bit. I was looking for a new apartment this past week and much of the sales pitch was why the other apartments suck.
It's just going to happen.
What I see a lot of as well is the opposite end of the spectrum where teachers just blindly ignore what a teacher is saying, no matter how flawed it is and against what scientific fact states, because they don't want to ruffle feathers. Down the road they may need to work for or with that instructor and if they piss them off, they won't get the job. I don't think that helps me, the golfer/student/customer. And if I had to choose between the two, I would take instructors calling out other instructors as long as it's backed up by facts and/or reasonable logic.
3JACK
Brian Manzella
Administrator
You want numbers?
Golfer/Student in question...
Early shots - average of first six shots (I dove in after that)...
14 balls later....the last three with the same club.
He put up several zeroed out path+clubface swings after that with various clubs and hot the driver excellent (no chance of that before).
Jeremy Hodge watched the whole lesson.
My point WAS NOT TO HAVE A TEACH-OFF, nobody wants one.
My point is that after 600 years of golf, even a supposed excellent teacher, can't even fix a slice.
Which means they are NO CONTEST for me—business wise.
Got it?
Whew!
Golfer/Student in question...
Early shots - average of first six shots (I dove in after that)...
7 iron - AoA - 5.68, Path - outside-in 3.27, Dynamic Loft 27.15°, open 1.97°, carry 117.79 yards, off line 14.36 to the right.
14 balls later....the last three with the same club.
7 iron - AoA - 4.40, Path - inside-out 3.53, Dynamic Loft 23.20°, open 1.26°, carry 128.76 yards, off line 7.32 to the left.
He put up several zeroed out path+clubface swings after that with various clubs and hot the driver excellent (no chance of that before).
Jeremy Hodge watched the whole lesson.
My point WAS NOT TO HAVE A TEACH-OFF, nobody wants one.
My point is that after 600 years of golf, even a supposed excellent teacher, can't even fix a slice.
Which means they are NO CONTEST for me—business wise.
Got it?
Whew!
I don't disagree in a perfect world that would happen but we don't live in that world. You don't have to convince me, you have to convince "them", all or most of "them". Eventually can be a very long time and it has been so far.
The student was hopeless when he showed up. Lots of ability and junk technique. He said "I don't know what i'm supposed to feel". He just knew his swing was supposed to look like the newest trendy swing that was given to him. The change was so fast that after he piped some drives there was lots of time for short game. He zeroed out a few times when they returned for a few more Trackman swings. He left knowing what he was supposed to feel with a swing that he can use. What more could you ask for in a lesson?
Jeremy
Jeremy
Video one of these people taking a live lesson from Brian with Trackman and put it on youtube and show every one of the critics how quick you can help someone fix their swing problems.
That would be one of the most watched video's on youtube for golf and shut up the naysayers. Better than a teach off.
Thanks for clarifying this Brian.
Care to touch on my questions:
Have you tried to organize such an event in the past?
If so, what did you do to try organize it?
Interested to hear if this has been attempted.
Thanks
Jay
Matt Bryda
New
I disagree.
Thanks to technology, internet, cheaper and faster cameras and ball/club tracking devices with reliable numbers and 3D machines there has been more progress made with golf swing research in the last ten years than ever before. Just like there has been golf equipment revolutions in the past I think there is an instruction revolution going on right now. I know my knowledge base has increased since joining this site and participating in the GTEs. So I think eventually happening is happening NOW, if you are able enough to see it.
Matt
I wasn't commenting on technology or knowledge, it's about convincing the naysayers and getting the so called method teachers to change. I don't see that happening in fact i see more method teachers than ever before, and it has been a very long time like Brian said 600 years and supposed excellent teachers can't fix a slice.
Last edited:
Matt Bryda
New
until now
Brian and his staff
and anyone else that utilizes the information from this site!
Matt
Yeah, but i'm not talking about them it's the other guy's that don't get it that i'm talking about and there's lot's of them.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Honest Answers from Golf's Answer Manz....
I posted the numbers from the first 23 balls of the lesson in the thread starter.
Crickets.
I fixed the guy in 14 balls for crying out loud.
I'd raise the money personally to get a good, objective ranking system done.
I'd even agree to not even be allowed to be on the list.
How's that for ego?
It has been happening to me for 28 years.
That's the best point made in this thread.
To much mambe-pambe goin' around.
They ALL laid a colossal, tetradactyl egg.
My main point is the opposite.
Who else will show up for a live debate on their stuff? Or a teach-off?
Ever wonder why?
I will say this a nicely as I can...
That is total and complete bullshit.
About 11% of all golfers have taken a lesson in the last couple of YEARS.
Why?
Cause Johnny can't fix their slice—or shank—or chronic hook, etc.
In this very suspect economy, I had my best year ever by 25%.
You wouldn't even know my name if I didn't blow up 100 idiots on the first two sites I was banned from.
I'd be happy to so from EVERY LESSON I JUST DID IN VEGAS.
But I did one, and all I heard was crickets.
The folks that don't like the D-Plane the most, are the two guys that lost the argument ion it with me at the Leitz seminar.
I am STILL WAITING for the apology.
A simple, "You were right, Brian, I was dead wrong" will do.
I'll second that one.
Crickets.....
The folks who have seen me teach, have seen all this stuff live, and my stupid critics always run from the fact.
This site is going to be 7 years old this spring.
I have come a LONG WAY in these seven years in this biz, so I disagree completely.
We are close to completely escaping from this association and media created Alcatraz.
Just a little walk in the park...
I give live—deconstructed—lessons at my GTEs.
Who else does ANYTHING like that?
I give away more free info than anyone else in history.
Who else is doing anything like that?
Some good YouTube stuff is coming though.
Nobody is interested.
Too much chance of total failure in ANY lesson for most guys.
I might ask the new PGA director about a live teaching demonstration. He might go for that.
Right before their very eyes, Matt.
I posted the numbers from the first 23 balls of the lesson in the thread starter.
Crickets.
I fixed the guy in 14 balls for crying out loud.
I'd raise the money personally to get a good, objective ranking system done.
I'd even agree to not even be allowed to be on the list.
How's that for ego?
It has been happening to me for 28 years.
That's the best point made in this thread.
To much mambe-pambe goin' around.
They ALL laid a colossal, tetradactyl egg.
My main point is the opposite.
Who else will show up for a live debate on their stuff? Or a teach-off?
Ever wonder why?
I will say this a nicely as I can...
That is total and complete bullshit.
About 11% of all golfers have taken a lesson in the last couple of YEARS.
Why?
Cause Johnny can't fix their slice—or shank—or chronic hook, etc.
In this very suspect economy, I had my best year ever by 25%.
You wouldn't even know my name if I didn't blow up 100 idiots on the first two sites I was banned from.
I'd be happy to so from EVERY LESSON I JUST DID IN VEGAS.
But I did one, and all I heard was crickets.
The folks that don't like the D-Plane the most, are the two guys that lost the argument ion it with me at the Leitz seminar.
I am STILL WAITING for the apology.
A simple, "You were right, Brian, I was dead wrong" will do.
I'll second that one.
Crickets.....
The folks who have seen me teach, have seen all this stuff live, and my stupid critics always run from the fact.
This site is going to be 7 years old this spring.
I have come a LONG WAY in these seven years in this biz, so I disagree completely.
We are close to completely escaping from this association and media created Alcatraz.
Just a little walk in the park...
I give live—deconstructed—lessons at my GTEs.
Who else does ANYTHING like that?
I give away more free info than anyone else in history.
Who else is doing anything like that?
Some good YouTube stuff is coming though.
Nobody is interested.
Too much chance of total failure in ANY lesson for most guys.
I might ask the new PGA director about a live teaching demonstration. He might go for that.
Right before their very eyes, Matt.
birly-shirly
New
Brian - what is the problem? It's the weekend, and I have a couple of toddlers of my own to pander to. And you're upset because it's taken me something like a day to register my amazement at your teaching prowess?
Gee whizzikens...no wonder you enjoy having a trackman around to remind you how awesome you are.
Gee whizzikens...no wonder you enjoy having a trackman around to remind you how awesome you are.
birly-shirly
New
Back on topic - I did actually think the figures Brian posted were great. Actually, I thought they were a little undersold. THis goes back to my point about the teaching industry versus the equipment industry. Those trackman figures could have been translated into ballflight figures, a nifty little dispersion diagram, or a bottom-line distance gained. All in terms that no equipment manufacturer could credibly claim.
What was it you gained in yardage Brian between a plus or minus 3* angle of attack with a driver? 50 yards? Anyone remember the fuss over the first ERC driver that might have delivered less than half of that?
But people continue to spend their money with the equipment manufacturers, rather than teachers. I think this is a mistake, and I don't think the answer is blaming other people, whether that's other dumb lazy students, or other dumb lazy teachers.
What does exist in the equipment business is a basic consensus that equipment and technology will do you good. People will claim that their stuff is the best - but you don't tend to hear Ping claiming that TM or Callaway is trash.
Meanwhile on this thread - we've got someone apparently seriously saying that NO-ONE other than a Manzella academy instructor or someone who is taking this information from this site can cure a slice.
Maybe I'm out of kilter with the rest of the golfing population. And I've never worked in sales or marketing. So maybe it REALLY IS a great marketing strategy to turn teaching into tribal combat. Does nothing for me though.
What was it you gained in yardage Brian between a plus or minus 3* angle of attack with a driver? 50 yards? Anyone remember the fuss over the first ERC driver that might have delivered less than half of that?
But people continue to spend their money with the equipment manufacturers, rather than teachers. I think this is a mistake, and I don't think the answer is blaming other people, whether that's other dumb lazy students, or other dumb lazy teachers.
What does exist in the equipment business is a basic consensus that equipment and technology will do you good. People will claim that their stuff is the best - but you don't tend to hear Ping claiming that TM or Callaway is trash.
Meanwhile on this thread - we've got someone apparently seriously saying that NO-ONE other than a Manzella academy instructor or someone who is taking this information from this site can cure a slice.
Maybe I'm out of kilter with the rest of the golfing population. And I've never worked in sales or marketing. So maybe it REALLY IS a great marketing strategy to turn teaching into tribal combat. Does nothing for me though.
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
ZZzzzzzzzzz with this kind of post!
I have personally seen Brian do dozens of these live lessons, as have many of the other Academy Instructors. The GTE participants have seen them too.
What Brian does, has done, and continues to do in this regard, is unparalleled. There is not one other instructor doing anything remotely like it and all your other 'top' teachers are running in the opposite direction as fast as they can.
Until other teachers front up and back themselves with respect to live lessons, there is one #1, and he is way out in front! And the naysayers should go to these other teachers' sites and ask 'why aren't they doing live lessons?'
Cheers!
- Status