No Contest.

[footwedge]

ZZzzzzzzzzz with this kind of post!

I have personally seen Brian do dozens of these live lessons, as have many of the other Academy Instructors. The GTE participants have seen them too.

What Brian does, has done, and continues to do in this regard, is unparalleled. There is not one other instructor doing anything remotely like it and all your other 'top' teachers are running in the opposite direction as fast as they can.

Until other teachers front up and back themselves with respect to live lessons, there is one #1, and he is way out in front! And the naysayers should go to these other teachers' sites and ask 'why aren't they doing live lessons?'

Cheers!

Your taking the whole live lesson on youtube as a negative i think it would be a positive for everyone involved, why so defensive? How does a good thing get twisted to be a bad thing.

There's lot's of people that unfortunately can't attend the GTE, and lots of people just hear about these great things that Brian is doing from GTE members.

Who cares about the other top teachers, i want to see the best do
his thing on youtube like he does at the GTE. It would be awesome and motivating to see, instead of hear about.

 

[needham]

no offence............

I have not seen a live lesson. Brian's Youtube stuff is great.......but to prove this Boards/Brian's point it would be real nice to get a 12 handi for a 30 minute youtube lesson.

It Dont matter if you are "way out front" if you are the only one who knows/thinks it.

JMHO

 

[JHodge]

if it were me, I wouldn't want to give all that info for free on Youtube. It would be worth it to do it for free in front of other instructors/PGA members as they would prob have to comment. No one has to comment on a Youtube vid or they can just say they didn't see it. Not possible to ignore it at a PGA meeting or televised version

Jeremy

 

[JHodge]

Live lesson I mean

 

[ZAP]

I am of the opinion that Brian already gives away more free info via this site than you will find anywhere else. The videos are a huge bargain and if I can find the time this summer I plan to find out if the lessons are better. I would like to see the teach off happen.....but it will not. The only balls around are the ones at the range.

 

[footwedge]

if it were me, I wouldn't want to give all that info for free on Youtube. It would be worth it to do it for free in front of other instructors/PGA members as they would prob have to comment. No one has to comment on a Youtube vid or they can just say they didn't see it. Not possible to ignore it at a PGA meeting or televised version

Jeremy

Lame excuse, first off the average person can't see it at a PGA meeting and that's who your trying to reach, i mean that's how you make your money right, from the average guy, not from other pro's, hell their your competition.

All that free info, right, stupid idea who would post video's on youtube and give away free info, crazy idea

Yeah, no one comments on youtube golf video's , they just ignore them Lot's of excuses not to, but hey it's just not worth it if people are just going to ignore the best teacher giving a live lesson on a freebie video, right? Crickets unite.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Live Lesson online...

I would love to do a live lesson online.

I won't do it for free at first, but for a small fee (like $5).

At some point, I'll pots up all sorts of different lessons online for a fee, like Ben's tape rentals.

Footwedge, DannyUk32 and needham are right about the value of doing it online.

It is in the pipeline.

 

[gimme]

I would love to do a live lesson online.

I won't do it for free at first, but for a small fee (like $5).

At some point, I'll pots up all sorts of different lessons online for a fee, like Ben's tape rentals.

Footwedge, DannyUk32 and needham are right about the value of doing it online.

It is in the pipeline.

Thanks Brian and no one would begrudge you a small fee, i would buy it for sure, i think it's going to be a great deal, where else can you get to see this for even a large fee. It will be very informative for the average Joe or Josephine.

 

[footwedge]

I would love to do a live lesson online.

I won't do it for free at first, but for a small fee (like $5).

At some point, I'll pots up all sorts of different lessons online for a fee, like Ben's tape rentals.

Footwedge, DannyUk32 and needham are right about the value of doing it online.

It is in the pipeline.

Fantastic i'm in, thanks, good on you Brian, five bucks a sweet deal and more then worth it. I know lot's of people will view it and it's going to be different than the run of the mill youtube golf video.

 

[JHodge]

Lame excuse, first off the average person can't see it at a PGA meeting and that's who your trying to reach, i mean that's how you make your money right, from the average guy, not from other pro's, hell their your competition.

All that free info, right, stupid idea who would post video's on youtube and give away free info, crazy idea

Yeah, no one comments on youtube golf video's , they just ignore them Lot's of excuses not to, but hey it's just not worth it if people are just going to ignore the best teacher giving a live lesson on a freebie video, right? Crickets unite.

"runon scarcasm dick" could be a fitting name for you

I was referring to giving away a live lesson for free on YouTube.

 

[footwedge]

"runon scarcasm dick" could be a fitting name for you

I was referring to giving away a live lesson for free on YouTube.

Yeah who would give away a live lesson on youtube, no one comes to mind.
Ah good old name calling one of my favorite memories of fifth grade, but i had to give it up as it got me nowhere.

Is that how you spell it? "runon scarcasm dick"

 

[caedus]

I saw and heard something today teaching in Vegas that I almost could't believe, but after 28 years in the biz, I can believe anything.

I gave a lesson to a golfer who will remain nameless.

He had taken a lesson from a "teacher" that is known on every golf instruction internet site. He is one of the new breed, not super young or old. Not super famous, but known. Well thought of everywhere. He is a first lieutenant in an army of guys who have a massive superiority complex as a group, although he is really like that as far as I know.

The only other thing I'll say is he isn't a book literalist/tripoder.

To be honest, it doesn't matter who he is.

It is what he didn't do in the lesson this guy took from him.

The "student" is a strong guy, not very young or close to old. Good enough athlete.

The "student" twisted the shaft open on the backswing as much as he physically could with a good grip—the ultimate "twist-toward."

This "teacher" gave this "student" a lesson and NEVER EVER EVEN MENTIONED—much less fixed or even band-aided—this student's OBVIOUS FAULT.

I mean, from there, all the "student" could do was shovel it forward and try not to slice it off the earth.

I fixed him up good, Never Slice Again style, and that was that. He hit many PURE shots, zeroed out with a PERFECT angle of attack and vertical swing plane on TrackMan.

He hit some great drives, many with a little draw, and left very happy.

The moral of this story?

Wow!

There are folks on the internet that criticize me? And my teaching? And my material?

Give me a break!

There NEEDS TO BE a massive live lesson demonstration done somewhere, sometime, with everyone who thinks they can actually teach.

I say demonstration because NOBODY wants a teach off.

So, ok, no "teach off."

But let's at least have a teaching SHOW OFF!

Please.

This "wave" of new wave instruction needs a little reality check.

And the world of golf needs to find out what works and who can "cut the mustard" in the real world.

No contest.

This is fantastic stuff , I always enjoy reading Brian's insights into the phoney 18 handicapper stack and tilt instructors who write drivel on all golf forums about how good they hit the ball and how good the pictures looked after a lesson. The swing never looks athletic on film
Who was the instructor you piped 300 down the middle Brian?

 

[Brian Manzella]

This is fantastic stuff , I always enjoy reading Brian's insights into the phoney 18 handicapper stack and tilt instructors who write drivel on all golf forums about how good they hit the ball and how good the pictures looked after a lesson. The swing never looks athletic on film
Who was the instructor you piped 300 down the middle Brian?

No names.

The "person" who it was doesn't matter. Golf is slowly dying, and it is becuase Johnny can't teach.

The methods are fine, all of them, really, just fine for somebody.

The student in question would NOT have been fixed by Leadbetter, Haney, Harmon, or any of the other golf media created "stars" becuase this particualr golfer needed something none of them teach.

All of the comments about me putting up lessons on YouTube or anywhere online to "prove my point" are not what this thread was supposed to be about. Folks who come on this site with less than good intentions always have the same start, and the same finish. So, let them die on the vine if they have a vendetta. If they don't, that's great too.

This is NOT about me. This is about METHOD TEACHING and poorly trained TEACHERS of all kinds.

I can understand the legion of young failed mini-tourists. They don't want to be club pros, and they want a way around the 10,000 hours to level 1 mastery.

So they go find a method teacher, learn the ONE & ONLY WAY TO TEACH, then go out and sound like parrots.

Been there done that.

The idea that there were MULTIPLE PATTERNS that would work always interested me, and so I eventually would up in "custom city."

A scary placed for a young eager teacher.

If you are selling VWs as the one and only car, or selling SAABs or Buicks, and someone comes along telling the world that there are Chevys and BMWs and Cadillacs, and shoot, you don't need a brand new car if all that is wrong with your 2001 Nissan is a water pump, a four wheel alignment, and a new set of tires, the VW, Saab, and Buick guys are going to slam you everywhere and anytime they can.

I mean, geeez, the goofy book literalists can't stand that fact that I nailed them on the Resultant Path and the D-Plane, the stack & tilters don't wany anyone to think an upright swing with a full finish (ala Nick-loss) might work, and all the guys who are just sheep/followers can't stand a Dago with an attitude and the teaching ability to back it up.

So, here we sit (like the Tack-Flo Grips ).

I will continue to push the Manzella GTE program to improve, and we will show the world the truth in teaching, by the fruits of our labor.

I mean....fix the friggin' clubface and THEN teach the guy whatever you want to....

 

[Brian Manzella]

Back on topic - I did actually think the figures Brian posted were great. Actually, I thought they were a little undersold. THis goes back to my point about the teaching industry versus the equipment industry. Those trackman figures could have been translated into ballflight figures, a nifty little dispersion diagram, or a bottom-line distance gained. All in terms that no equipment manufacturer could credibly claim..

When I did my presentation at the National MIT Better Golf Through Technology Summit, it was all numbers based.

Crickets.

And that was with the best results EVER in the history of that summit.

...we've got someone apparently seriously saying that NO-ONE other than a Manzella academy instructor or someone who is taking this information from this site can cure a slice.

Maybe I'm out of kilter with the rest of the golfing population. And I've never worked in sales or marketing. So maybe it REALLY IS a great marketing strategy to turn teaching into tribal combat. Does nothing for me though.

Surely there are MANY TEACHERS out there that could have fixed that golfer.

I am sure of that.

Don Villavaso could have for $35 an hour, while sitting on two milk crates bicycle-locked together with a boat seat cushion on top.

At the Manzella Academy, and with me in general, we are generally counter-punchers.

And we swing hard when provoked.

Is it great marketing?

It beats the heck out of sitting in the back of the room watching inferior teachers pat each other on the back.

 

[Richie3Jack]

It beats the heck out of sitting in the back of the room watching inferior teachers pat each other on the back.

That's pretty much my point.

As an amateur and a person who takes lessons, teachers who just pat each other on the back regardless of what they teach does nothing to help me and my game.

It reminds me of my frustrations as a football fan watching NFL referees who are so bad that they actually do not know the rule book. And every time I watch the NFL Network, I hear the head of officials 'act nice' and try to spin it favorably for the league. And every year we see the same old bad refereeing. It doesn't do me, the customer, any good.

Instead, the NFL should be very active in recruiting new referees and training them properly, then grade them very tough and reward those who do well and stop using those refs who perform poorly.

I'm not exactly looking for a bloodbath either, but I really don't have a problem with instructors holding other instructors feet to the fire.

The big name instructors have been kissing each other's asses for years and the average golfer's score still hasn't gone down. I give the S&T guys credit, they called out a lot of this popular golf instruction theory...without even mentioning names...and were attacked heavily by those big named instructors. So to me, it's not like those big name instructors like to play nice and take the high road when there are new challengers to their throne.






3JACK

 

[Mad Hatter]

Guys I went to the Trackman Seminar in Port St Lucie in December. Brian I know you wanted to attend but you went to the Alabama vs LSU game as you pointed out at the AMF Seminar. I went up and asked Fredrick how many instructors on the top 100 list own a Trackman and he told me twenty and a good amount just use the Trackman just for fittings and not instruction.

Everyday Brian gets off the wagon does his research and is nice enough to have this amazing forum for all of us to learn. As an instructor the questions I ask myself:
1. Did the student improve after working with me?
2. Did he understand everything and has a game plan to go home and practice?
All my students get a cd to take home with them to play on their computer. I wish there was a program to tell me if they ever view it.
3. Are their scores improving or is their handicap coming down?
4. What could I have done better with the student?

There are always surveys that you can send your students to get feedback but do you survey yourself as an instructor. It comes down to the student if they are not seeing an improvement then why are they going to spend their hard earned dollars to take a golf lesson with you.

A doctor once told me that I can give you the prescription to make you feel better but is up to you if you take the medicine. I know I went a little off target but if you can have all the gadgets a trackman, casio ex-f1 but if you can not fix a student and change that slice to a draw then your lesson book will dwindling with students. Word of Mouth is huge in this business and it can be a great thing or it could kill you.

 

[Brian Manzella]

...you can have all the gadgets a trackman, casio ex-f1 but if you can not fix a student and change that slice to a draw then your lesson book will dwindling with students. Word of Mouth is huge in this business and it can be a great thing or it could kill you.

That is a great point.

You see, the METHOD TEACHERS think that ANYTHING besides "developmental" teaching is band-aiding.

Guys, I am sorry, but you are wrong.

I travel all over the country teaching, and trust me, for every 100 golfers I see on ranges and golf courses, less than 1% are making a swing that even I can identify as the pattern of a known teacher.

So, whether they like it or not, you have to FIND OUT WHY this student in front of you is not hitting it as good as they can.

You need to try to understand how to fix and say the least amount of words to get the job--better ball striking--done.

I had a non-teaching swing theorist tell me he has heard a couple of folks say they didn't get enough detail from a lesson with me.

As all of you know, I can talk swing theory as much as anyone, in as much detail as you want.

But, in a lesson, I am leaving 70% of all the detail out, becuase 99% of the time, the less talked about the better.

The student only needs to know what the students needs to know.

The teacher that doesn't know that the golfer has a clubface that is 150 degrees open at the top, or doesn't care, or thinks he will get to it later, is hurting golf.

Fix the golfer first, make him look pretty second.

If you are into pretty.

Here is what I do in most average golfer lessons:

1. Look at the ball-flight vs. the TrackMan numbers vs. the Top fo the backswing clubface rotation about the shaft + the left arm flying wedge rotation + finish arm/hands/clubface.

2. Take a look at the belly view to see how the pivot relates to #1, and if you need to, look at the rear view as well.

3. You should now know where to start 90% of the time.

4. If you don't look at the 420s from the Casio.

5. If you still don't, keep watching and looking at all from trends and outliers.

6. If it is still not obvious, start aking questions about how they got to this particular pattern.

etc.

etc.

I think that most method teachers, like Haney, just see an "in" clubhead on the backswing, or any other non match for their pet pattern, and start making a Buick look like a Ford.

 

[CanadianAMFTeachPro]

Many strong words in this post!

At the end of the day, it is all about the student and whether or not they have improved. I've never advertised in my entire 17 years of teaching and I am one of the 5 busiest Teachers in Canada. Do the research, understand the root problem and FIX IT. If the student does not change right away, switch tracks with one of a million drills. It is NOT rocket science.

"Why guess when you can measure" Great words to live by with Trackman, Flightscope, Casio, K-Vest, etc. Quantifying the improvement in your student can be measured in real-time so teachers who do not embrace this technology are not necessarily getting the whole picture.


My opinion is many teachers are
A) not knowledgeable enough (give them a chance to learn something on this site and it will educate them)
B) too lazy to improve themselves because the poor golfing public does not know better and many will still shell out the bucks
C) not passionate enough about the privelage of HELPING people enjoy this fabulous game - Sitting with Brian at last year's AMF conference, you could see the passion oozing out! He is a man who embodies the energy, knowledge and commitment needed by a top instructor.

I find it pointless to constantly trash other people's opinions on swing theory. As Bruce Lee did with his fighting style Jeet Kune Do, take what is valuable to you and discard what isn't. He took elements of many fighting styles to create something which worked for him. The following is his take on defining "styles"

"If people say Jeet Kune Do is different from "this" or from "that," then let the name of Jeet Kune Do be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name. Please don't fuss over it.[12] - Don't get hung up on labels and parameters. JKD is alive and therefore always changing; JKD embodies all and no style simultaneously, thus cannot be compared."
The same applies to Teaching. Understand the totality of the movement and use the methods and styles to make the positive change. Period.

SC

 

[birly-shirly]

Lots of good points, from Brian, Mad Hatter and Richie.

As for where I'm coming from, I have zero experience of lessons from some academy trainee. There are no schools of that sort where I am - just guys who earn their living by giving lessons on their own account and word of mouth referrals.

If there was a marquee school where one big name is the draw but where I'd be taught by an apprentice, I'd probably give it a miss. On the other hand, I've never had a lesson that I wasn't happy with. Much of that instruction was of the, shall we say, traditional variety - grip, stance, posture, ball position - but I've left feeling either that I was swinging better, or with a clear idea of what to work on.

I also take seriously the student's responsibility to offer up where I'm coming from, what I've been working on, ball-flight tendencies, how a move feels, whether I'm struggling with something, and so on.

So, in my experience, my teachers have all been perfectly competent.

I agree with Mad Hatter that a teacher had better be offering something that their students value if they're going to stay in business. However, I guess there's maybe an exception if you're talking about a junior employee of a branded instruction academy rather than someone who really relies on word of mouth referrals. Like I say, I have no real experience of the latter. It follows that I also don't have any experience of any sort of conspiracy or distortion, tacit or otherwise, that Richie feels is out there.

Likewise, I have no experience of "top 100" teaching, except what some of those guys will put their name to in books. I more or less completely disregard anything under their byline in magazines. But books-wise, I think there's lots of good material worth reading by Haney, Flick, Ballard, Leadbetter, Jacobs, B&P and (to a lesser extent maybe) Harmon. Not saying those books are the best, but certainly (IMO) worth reading - whereas there's an unfortunate tendency in some posters here to trash anything not coming out of Louisiana - whether from "average Joe", a "top 100" teacher or a multiple major winner.

I also think, though this may be harsh, that the reason for the standard of golf being stuck on a plateau for 100 years and the average golfer's disillusionment is more likely explained by Tommy Armour, who said that the average golfer will never work as hard at his game as he hopes at it.

Brian - I thought you hit the nail on the head with your comment that less than 1% of average golfers on the range resemble ANY model or method. That leaves me thinking that the problem isn't the method in itself, it's either the golfer, poor teaching of the model (which could easily be the "apprentice teacher" problem), or a model that's just a bad fit for that student. In many cases, probably at least 2 out of the 3.

Brian - any thoughts on how John Jacobs schooled teachers tend to fare in your estimation? You don't need to deal specifically with Haney if that clouds the issue...

 

[Brian Manzella]

...there's an unfortunate tendency in some posters here to trash anything not coming out of Louisiana - whether from "average Joe", a "top 100" teacher or a multiple major winner.

Ever wonder why?

Why don't you compile a list of the "offenders" and ask them.

My educated guess would be that they went everywhere else and didn't get any solid useful information that helped their cause, whether it is teaching or playing.

I certainly think they sure aren't doing it for funsies.

...the reason for the standard of golf being stuck on a plateau for 100 years and the average golfer's disillusionment is more likely explained by Tommy Armour, who said that the average golfer will never work as hard at his game as he hopes at it.

Total and complete BALONEY!

I could fix more than half of the disillusioned in an a half hour.

Then, they would be the dis-disillusioned.

Brian...your comment that less than 1% of average golfers on the range resemble ANY model or method. That leaves me thinking that the problem isn't the method in itself, it's either the golfer, poor teaching of the model (which could easily be the "apprentice teacher" problem), or a model that's just a bad fit for that student. In many cases, probably at least 2 out of the 3.

I toally and completely disagree.

So sorry.

Methods blow 90% of the time, and don't fit 9% of the time.

...Brian - any thoughts on how John Jacobs schooled teachers tend to fare in your estimation? You don't need to deal specifically with Haney if that clouds the issue...

Jacobs was a common sense, ball-flight teacher.

He trained them in that style.

He didn't have the ball flight laws correct, and was quite a bit vague about impact alignments, but all in all I'd say he did better than most "trainers."